WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:10.080 Welcome everybody, this is Kerry for me, I've never talked to a room like this before, 00:10.080 --> 00:15.720 so big, so thank you all for coming, and let's have some fun. 00:15.720 --> 00:16.720 If the clicker works. 00:16.720 --> 00:17.720 Yes. 00:17.720 --> 00:21.400 All right, so we're going to talk about how to make package managers scream. 00:21.400 --> 00:27.400 First, a little bit about myself, I'm super computing, this admin at Genshin University 00:27.400 --> 00:28.400 here in Belgium. 00:28.400 --> 00:33.400 If you don't know what super computing is, there's a bedroom tomorrow about HPC, HPC, 00:33.400 --> 00:36.800 high-performance computing, come and check it out. 00:36.800 --> 00:40.920 I've been into open source software for quite a while now, yes, I'm getting old, I like 00:40.920 --> 00:46.080 other stuff as well, if you bring me a beer, I'll be happy, and I've been attending for 00:46.080 --> 00:51.440 them for a long time already, and organizing an HPC bedroom for a long time already. 00:51.440 --> 00:55.520 Some people know me from the easy-built project, maybe even the easy project, which is a bit 00:55.520 --> 01:01.200 more recent, but that's not what I'm going to talk about today at all. 01:01.200 --> 01:07.800 Some of you may have seen this, how to make package managers cry talk at Foss Dam, a thousand 01:07.800 --> 01:08.800 years ago. 01:08.800 --> 01:12.040 How many of you have seen it at Foss Dam in the room? 01:12.040 --> 01:15.040 Okay, how many so I don't line? 01:15.040 --> 01:16.680 Couple more. 01:16.680 --> 01:22.120 Everybody else hasn't seen it yet, you should be, you should be watching it, but I guess 01:22.120 --> 01:25.280 for you, this talk will be more fun than for the others. 01:25.280 --> 01:29.160 Let's see, so some people liked it back then, the deaf room was way too small, they put 01:29.160 --> 01:33.960 me in a bigger room this year, thank you very much for that. 01:33.960 --> 01:40.400 It was posted on Hacker News, sort of, like, they were got three uploads, so, okay, it did 01:40.400 --> 01:45.200 get posted on another thread, what's your favorite tech talk, so I must have done something 01:45.200 --> 01:46.200 right. 01:46.200 --> 01:48.960 So it's on YouTube, you can find it on the Foss Dam website as well. 01:48.960 --> 01:53.360 Today we're doing this sequel, I actually submitted this to the package management 01:53.360 --> 02:00.840 and the deaf room which happened this morning, but it got promoted to this, so, all right. 02:00.840 --> 02:05.560 It's sort of more of the same, but also kind of different, so you'll see, something just 02:05.560 --> 02:10.520 trying to have a bit more fun, and as many of you know, and as opening talk this morning 02:10.520 --> 02:17.680 as well, we are living in a different world compared to 2018. 02:17.680 --> 02:22.240 I was sitting here for the two talks before, the audience was very quiet, I hope it's 02:22.240 --> 02:26.200 going to be different for this talk, I want you to shout during the talk as well, speak 02:26.200 --> 02:32.760 your mind, yes, so let's, let's make this fun, all right, so it is going to be a little 02:32.760 --> 02:39.120 bit biased, I work in super computing, I work with scientific software, so there is a bit 02:39.120 --> 02:44.240 of an angle like this, but I hopefully, I will still translate well, how many of you have 02:44.240 --> 02:47.960 their own super computer? 02:47.960 --> 02:53.640 I sort of do, so yeah, the good news is super computers really like Linux, like Windows, 02:53.640 --> 03:01.400 macOS, BSD, just, yeah, no way, yeah, that's true, yeah, not only super computers do 03:01.400 --> 03:06.280 also regular ones, so most of this is actually in the Linux world, but we are at false 03:06.280 --> 03:11.840 names, so that's fine, on a super computer you typically build your software from source, 03:11.840 --> 03:17.920 and that's a lot of fun, I can tell you, so there's definitely an angle to that as well, 03:17.920 --> 03:23.840 the software that we install is often developed by scientists, scientists are very often 03:23.840 --> 03:30.960 not software engineers, so yeah, it does get interesting, and also yeah, super computer 03:30.960 --> 03:34.520 is built for many different people, not one person using it as a laptop, and there's an 03:34.520 --> 03:40.000 angle to that as well, but hopefully this will translate well, let's see, so yeah, package 03:40.000 --> 03:45.880 managers are people too, so they're not only the tools, package managers as a tool, but 03:45.960 --> 03:49.000 there's the people behind this as well, so that's actually what I'm focusing on on this 03:49.000 --> 03:56.920 talk, so I see package managers as the people who are installing software for either themselves, 03:56.920 --> 04:01.960 or somebody else, or at least packaging stuff, so it's easy to install and use, if you 04:01.960 --> 04:06.040 install software for somebody else, I consider you a package manager, so it's a very broad 04:06.040 --> 04:10.920 term, there's sort of first line with a sponder, so they're like the front line people, 04:10.920 --> 04:15.560 if there's a new software release, the package managers get to experience it first, so they 04:16.520 --> 04:21.640 are quite important, I would say, they also don't give up easily, they like solving puzzles, 04:21.640 --> 04:26.040 I consider myself to be a package manager, and I like solving puzzles, if you give me a challenge 04:26.040 --> 04:33.080 I'll spend hours to try and figure it out, what's the different, I don't know, difficult questions 04:33.080 --> 04:42.360 at the end, but the point, I guess, yeah, so package managers have seen a lot, but there's more 04:42.360 --> 04:47.960 of us, there's more of end users, and there's always going to be a minority, and we're also 04:47.960 --> 04:53.000 quite creative, and I'm going to help you with that. So who is this talk for? Well, if you're at 04:53.000 --> 04:58.200 fuzz them, you like computers, you like coding, you like computers, do what you want them to do, 04:58.200 --> 05:02.600 that's very good, you like open your software, again, you're at fuzz them, maybe you don't 05:02.600 --> 05:06.360 like dealing with people, though, you're in it for the computers in the coding, a lot less 05:06.360 --> 05:10.200 so for the people, and especially the people who are trying to use your software, 05:10.920 --> 05:14.600 yeah, maybe you're not a big fan of them, because they'll do weird stuff, right? 05:14.600 --> 05:19.400 They try to install your software and weird environments, they'll ask questions and often annoying 05:19.400 --> 05:25.080 questions, and you will have to come up with the answers, they'll even report problems, or bugs, 05:25.080 --> 05:30.840 what they call bugs, and probably you don't care about them, and they even dare to ask changes 05:30.840 --> 05:37.320 and features and more stuff for your software, so they are very annoying. So why do we want to 05:37.320 --> 05:42.200 make package manager screen then? Well, package managers make it easier for people to install 05:42.200 --> 05:47.240 and use your software, if they can't install a new software, they won't have any questions, 05:47.240 --> 05:52.360 right? So they are, again, the first line of defense. So we don't want that, because if a package 05:52.360 --> 05:57.000 manager is able to do their job really well, I don't only result in more work for us, for the 05:57.000 --> 06:02.840 people actually writing the software, so you want to make package managers give up, right? The best 06:02.920 --> 06:07.880 as we can, and if we can't make them, if we can't make them give up, we want to frustrate them, 06:07.880 --> 06:13.560 we want to slow them down, we want to do whatever we can. So there's a bunch of tips and tricks coming 06:13.560 --> 06:19.400 up that you can use, other any package managers in the room, so anyone installing software for 06:19.400 --> 06:24.600 other people, okay, that's quite a, keep your hand up, that's quite a bunch of people. If you're 06:24.600 --> 06:29.800 sitting next to a package manager, distract them, because we don't want them to know all the tricks, 06:29.880 --> 06:36.920 right? Send them an email, show them a bug, whatever, but distract them. So the goals for this 06:36.920 --> 06:42.200 talk are, well, we want to confuse them, right? We want to frustrate them if they can throw 06:42.200 --> 06:47.640 their computer away, that's good, they can't package manage for, they can't package software for a 06:47.640 --> 06:55.400 while, yeah, confusion, frustration, all of this is what we're really going for. Okay, so topics will 06:55.480 --> 07:00.440 be covering in this talk, it's quite a bunch of them. I'll just list them very quickly without 07:00.440 --> 07:05.880 going into too many details, that this is all prizes, prizes, this is what we are going, but it is coming 07:05.880 --> 07:13.240 up, right? All of this will cover, and we'll have examples as well. All right, so are we ready for 07:13.240 --> 07:23.160 all of this? Okay, okay, I don't know what happened here, right? Right, so first let's start with 07:23.240 --> 07:28.760 the question. So this is a graph coming from Wikipedia about the number of publications and 07:29.560 --> 07:34.040 books and all of this stuff published on LLMs. So you sort of see this increasing, 07:34.760 --> 07:43.240 in 2018, what happened in 2018? That's only made this boom. I haven't, yes, my last thoughts 07:43.240 --> 07:58.280 them talk happened in 2018. So I sort of cost this, maybe, I'm sorry, but they can help us, right? 07:59.320 --> 08:03.080 And yeah, of course I have to mention LLMs, I'll only do it in this slide, and then I'll give up on 08:03.080 --> 08:08.040 them, I promise, but if you use LLMs, you don't need to learn any of the trips or tricks or tools 08:08.120 --> 08:13.240 that I'm be showing you, you just ask LLM to wait for you. If somebody complains hallucinations 08:13.240 --> 08:19.080 by the LLM and you're done, you can even tell package managers, stop packaging software, just 08:19.080 --> 08:24.360 ask LLM to install the software for you. It sounds like a joke, it's not, people are actually 08:24.360 --> 08:30.920 proposing this as a standard, add an installed ND to your repository, tell LLM what to do, 08:30.920 --> 08:33.960 and the LLM will do it for you. So we don't need package managers anymore. 08:33.960 --> 08:40.680 Right? And of course, this is actually a bad idea, because this gives the package managers very 08:40.680 --> 08:49.400 good documentation on how to install your software. So don't do this. Naming things is hard, 08:49.400 --> 08:54.600 right? So naming or project is actually already a first line of defense, if they can't pronounce 08:54.600 --> 09:00.680 the name, if they can't find your package by searching for it. Great, very good. So make 09:00.760 --> 09:06.600 sure it's hard to search for, try to confuse people. If they search for something, 09:06.600 --> 09:10.840 Python is a very good one. It's a snake, right? A good luck finding help on that. 09:12.760 --> 09:17.080 You should also use a project name that implies something that's totally untrue about your project. 09:17.080 --> 09:21.640 That's a very good one. Use funny characters, like there's ASCII characters that you can use, 09:22.680 --> 09:26.760 that are not that common, like a pipe is very good. It's a regular ASCII character, but it's a 09:26.760 --> 09:32.760 nightmare to use it anywhere. Unicode characters are very good, of course, trademark signs. 09:32.760 --> 09:38.920 Maybe you're forced to use them. Unicode stuff, so excellent. Try to trigger typos. 09:39.800 --> 09:45.720 I encourage people to make typos. That's actually coming up. And just be inconsistent as much as you can. 09:45.720 --> 09:51.640 Name your package, name your project, give it one name, name it something else in the documentation, 09:52.360 --> 09:55.960 whatever. If you talk about it, name it something else, and people will just don't know what's 09:56.120 --> 10:01.640 up in there. So here's some examples. Rust, I kind of like Rust. That's a good one. 10:01.640 --> 10:07.240 It's a programming language, but it's also a color. It's a game. A pretty popular game. It's a chemical 10:07.240 --> 10:12.760 process. It's a movie that got a lot of new coverage for very bad reasons, but yeah, so there's already 10:12.760 --> 10:18.920 some room for confusion there. See, in our single letter names? Yeah, amazing to search for. So 10:18.920 --> 10:25.560 getting help for that is easy build is, it's as easy, but it has 250 configuration options. So how 10:25.640 --> 10:31.960 in what sense is it easy? It's not easy at all. This is a difficult one. Ask in this pack 10:31.960 --> 10:38.840 slack for help to install spark and the stack using a spec. It's a valid sentence. It actually makes sense. 10:41.000 --> 10:45.160 See, you can actually use this. Python packages, so there's this weird thing going on on 10:45.160 --> 10:49.480 pipeline that they don't like dashes, and they want to use underscores instead in file names, 10:49.480 --> 10:54.600 all over the place, in file names. So not then things that you import in Python, just the file name, 10:54.680 --> 11:03.240 and he's an underscore. It makes zero sense to me. Good. Excellent. Sorry. M dashes. I'm not sure. 11:03.240 --> 11:05.960 That's unique, so good. Yeah. 11:09.800 --> 11:14.280 These are actual names as well. Open pipes teach up. It's a real name of a project. 11:14.920 --> 11:20.840 Later, it's kind of funny when the camel casing omega has the omega in this omega omega. I don't know, 11:21.400 --> 11:28.120 very good. This is also a nice example of a project. Some of you may know, who knows this? 11:29.800 --> 11:36.200 Hopefully. So it's a bit niche in HPC. It's a dependency for open MPI. Open MPI is something for running 11:36.200 --> 11:44.200 big scale applications on supercomputers. It's short for this, which I can pronounce. 11:45.240 --> 11:50.040 First word is then short for something else. So the whole thing is like process management interface 11:50.040 --> 11:56.280 XSK or reference runtime environment. How do we even pronounce this thing? Is it pretty? Is it pretty? 11:56.280 --> 12:02.520 Are they going for pretty? Maybe. And the other thing is PMIX, PMAX. I don't know. Good. Confusion. 12:03.800 --> 12:08.440 They're very inconsistent in terms of how they use the name. So this is a screenshot from the documentation. 12:09.000 --> 12:15.000 It's formally referred to as, let's say, pretty. And you get to have a directory. It's a lower case. 12:15.080 --> 12:21.240 Okay, not bad. This is the second part of the screenshot. They say, yeah, has two consecutive 12:21.240 --> 12:28.120 arms, which is a bit annoying. So in everything that we do, we'll just use one arm. And that's way better. 12:37.240 --> 12:42.200 All right. So names that you should consider for your own project in the future. Phoenix is a very popular 12:42.280 --> 12:45.480 one. There's a hundred Phoenix's out there, a rise from the ashes. Very sexy. 12:46.360 --> 12:51.800 High-rise, similar, and especially with parallel software, multiple heads. All of this. Really anything 12:51.800 --> 12:57.880 mythology is good. Just pick something from a mythology and you're fine. Some play on snakes, especially 12:57.880 --> 13:03.880 in the Python ecosystem. There's always more snakes that you can use. There's no room for confusion at all. 13:03.880 --> 13:10.520 Everybody knows what each of these are. Maybe. Open something, even if, especially if it's not open. 13:12.600 --> 13:19.800 Use this. And another example is alpha something. If you want to win a Nobel Prize, go for alpha something. 13:21.560 --> 13:27.160 Next to naming the project itself, there's a terminology in your project or in the tools that you use. 13:27.160 --> 13:31.800 So you've stuff that's not standard. Right? To come up with new names for things that are well-established. 13:32.680 --> 13:37.000 Creates are just packages in Rust to me. But they call them crates. Okay. 13:37.960 --> 13:42.760 And then you're on terminology. Use tools that have custom terminology, so make people look up stuff 13:42.760 --> 13:48.360 to really understand what they're dealing with. That makes sense. Over load commonly used terminology. 13:49.000 --> 13:53.400 Like modules is a very good one. You should have modules in your project. Whatever they mean. 13:53.960 --> 13:58.760 There's this Linux kernel modules. There's four-term modules. There's C-make modules. There's Python modules. 13:58.760 --> 14:03.640 There's Ansible modules. There's Infirmable. They all are totally different things. Great. 14:03.960 --> 14:12.760 And also established terminology, like interface, just make sure you mean something slightly different for you than it does for most people. 14:15.160 --> 14:19.400 Yeah, structure of code and Rust of is located. This is one I have a lot of fun with. 14:20.440 --> 14:25.640 So first of all, it's your project. How you want the structure is up to you. Nobody else can tell you what to do. 14:25.640 --> 14:32.040 Right? It's your choice. It doesn't really need to make sense to other people. If it sort of makes sense to you, that's good enough. 14:33.720 --> 14:38.680 If you have source code in the repository, spread it across the whole thing. Deep directories, 14:39.560 --> 14:42.760 as many as you can, makes a lot of sense. Make people hunt for stuff. 14:44.200 --> 14:49.160 Why not? If you have configuration and build tools that you especially develop established ones, 14:49.160 --> 14:54.440 they look for things in standard places. But it doesn't mean you have to put them in the standard places. 14:54.440 --> 15:00.600 You can put them somewhere else. If you have binaries, don't put them in slash bin. Put them somewhere else. 15:01.560 --> 15:07.320 Same for libraries, same for header files. Lib includes, nah, this makes the merchants. 15:09.160 --> 15:13.800 Documentation is also nice. Of course, now you can only have the way with not having documentation. 15:14.360 --> 15:18.760 You'll get so many questions, people will get angry. You'll need to have some documentation. 15:19.160 --> 15:25.640 But it can still be very helpful to make package manager scream. It can be very minimal. 15:26.520 --> 15:30.920 In complete, it can be totally out of date. So not synced up with the source code. 15:30.920 --> 15:36.520 It can be explained, but in a very confusing way. Terminology helps a lot with that. 15:36.520 --> 15:41.800 It can be very long, very boring. Maybe someone you read me filed, maybe someone on the website, 15:41.800 --> 15:46.760 maybe someone actual documentation. We've got nosewant. You can make it hard to search. 15:48.360 --> 15:53.960 A research paper is something we see in scientific software. They only have a paper and that's the documentation. 15:56.600 --> 16:02.040 And they only do an MPDF because it's a bit annoying to search through. Or maybe it's just only the comments in the source code. 16:02.040 --> 16:05.720 That's the real documentation. Sorry. 16:06.840 --> 16:12.760 A word that I should have thought about this. Yeah, thank you. So suggestions are welcome. Yes. 16:15.560 --> 16:19.320 Actually, a word document is not good enough. It should be a word document in a zip file. 16:20.120 --> 16:22.600 Right. You can do levels. 16:24.760 --> 16:26.360 Well, this is getting confusing. Okay. 16:28.520 --> 16:29.880 Pay well. Wait. That's coming up. 16:31.560 --> 16:36.600 Host your project somewhere else. Like not why they expect to find it. I'm not going to call names here, but 16:37.720 --> 16:43.160 be creative. Look for other ways to post your stuff. Package managers like to have an account everywhere. 16:43.160 --> 16:48.120 On every possible platform. If they want to ask a question, make them open an account on 16:48.200 --> 16:54.440 somewhere that they don't have an account yet. Especially if it's slightly different in terms of user interface. So they have to learn stuff. 16:54.440 --> 17:03.160 Right. Self-hosted GitLab is interesting. Especially if you put it behind the wall guard and like you need an email in a certain domain to access the GitLab. 17:03.880 --> 17:13.080 No way to create an account from the outside. Excellent. Don't use Git. Right. Git is everywhere. Everybody knows it. There's many alternatives. 17:13.400 --> 17:17.480 CVS is nice. Look up CVS. On show. Yes. 17:23.960 --> 17:26.600 On share, but you should be giving the talk next year, maybe. 17:29.000 --> 17:36.280 Also scatter stuff. If you have releases, tag some things in the repository, mark some of them as a release. 17:36.280 --> 17:39.800 Have a mirror that mirrors some of the versions, but not everything. 17:40.440 --> 17:47.240 Upload then selections of those from PIPI or have releases from PIPI that don't have a tag in the repository. 17:47.240 --> 17:51.800 Have a website that has a release from five years ago that everybody still uses because they don't know their 17:51.800 --> 18:00.520 other stuff. Yes. Sorry. Sorry, taken. 18:02.120 --> 18:06.920 NFTP server. Yes. Back to the 90s. Yes. That's a very good option. 18:07.720 --> 18:14.200 Yeah. Well, questions at the end because I have many slides. You can include 18:14.200 --> 18:20.520 TARBALS, like zipped TARBALS, zipped files in a repository, in a GitHub repository. It's allowed. 18:20.520 --> 18:28.920 Right. And people do this. Levels, build levels. And you can split your project across many 18:28.920 --> 18:35.560 different repositories as well. Check out Rockham. Very good. Also name, excellent. 18:37.880 --> 18:41.320 You can also package things yourself. So beat them in their own game. 18:42.440 --> 18:48.920 If you do it first, then maybe you'll make it easy for them. Right. If you have installation instructions, 18:49.640 --> 18:55.240 only tell them only let them specify how to do a system-wide installation on a very specific 18:55.240 --> 19:00.200 distribution, like a bunch like a bunch, just an example. Why? Well, some people will think that 19:00.200 --> 19:05.080 you want to is required for your software and they'll figure out a way to install it. This has happened. 19:06.920 --> 19:12.520 We've had cases like this in support tickets, in super computing center. I tried to run 19:12.520 --> 19:18.520 pseudo-upget or apt install, for some example, and it didn't work. And the ticket actually said, 19:19.080 --> 19:22.120 and I entered my password and still didn't work, and I'm sure it's correct. 19:23.960 --> 19:28.040 Okay. And they were doing us on a rail-based distro, which doesn't even have apt. So, 19:28.360 --> 19:40.200 you can install apt. Yeah. Yeah. You can only provide the Docker file as installation instructions. 19:40.200 --> 19:44.840 That's good enough, right? It should help anyone. Why not? You can release your software 19:45.560 --> 19:53.800 as a Jupyter notebook. So the code and the notebook, that's it. This happens. There's a very good 19:53.800 --> 19:58.120 talk on, I don't like notebooks. He has a very complete example of that, where this is actually 19:58.120 --> 20:08.920 tough. As releasing a snap, I'm not familiar enough with snaps, but I guess so, if you're asking 20:08.920 --> 20:14.440 in the question, I guess. You can create your own package manager as well, right? If your thing 20:14.440 --> 20:19.080 is too complex, create your own one. If you're interested in the rock, there's a talk about it tomorrow 20:19.080 --> 20:26.200 and the HPC there. Dependencies, you all knew this was coming, right? The famous XKCD. 20:27.240 --> 20:31.000 There's this guy at the bottom. No, you don't want to be at the bottom. You want to be at the top. 20:32.040 --> 20:36.280 Right? Depend on as much stuff as you can. More dependencies is always better. 20:38.600 --> 20:44.040 Also choose them well, right? Yeah. Usually have many options. The libraries that implement 20:44.120 --> 20:49.080 similar stuff, use the ones that are causing most trouble or most likely to cost trouble. 20:49.080 --> 20:53.560 Obscure dependencies that nobody else is using, those are the ones you want. Right? If there's 20:53.560 --> 20:57.800 new stuff coming up, follow hacker news and jump on stuff as soon as you can, because it will 20:57.800 --> 21:03.080 be new to the package manager as well. You don't actually need to use all the dependencies you 21:03.160 --> 21:16.760 declare. Right? I mean, if the be a bit reasonable, keep yourself sane. Just make your 21:16.760 --> 21:22.600 configuration to like see make it required. Error out and then never use it. And include statements 21:22.600 --> 21:27.640 in your code like C++ and then you don't use the functionality at all, but they need to include files, 21:27.640 --> 21:32.600 so they'll need to install the dependency. If somebody complains, just that you're planning ahead 21:32.600 --> 21:37.160 for the future and you will, of course, actually use those dependencies. It is coming. 21:38.520 --> 21:46.280 So can you win any prizes with applying some of these tricks? Does anyone know the answer? 21:48.200 --> 21:57.880 The answer is yes. Yes, you can. If you look at alpha fold, so alpha fold is, I think everybody 21:57.880 --> 22:04.360 knows it from deep mind. Check the repository. It's a tool with proteins, la la. It's pretty well 22:04.360 --> 22:11.400 now. This is a screenshot from the read me. Step one and stole Docker. Step two and 22:11.400 --> 22:17.160 stole the Nvidia container toolkit, which you view support. Well, step two. One, I guess, 22:17.160 --> 22:22.840 1.1, 1.2 is an, make sure it's set up as an on-road user. Right? And then step two is a good 22:22.840 --> 22:30.520 clone and CD. Like compared to the first step is like this is the opposite of start with the 22:30.520 --> 22:35.320 now and finish the owl. It's actually the other way around. The hard stuff first and then CD. 22:38.120 --> 22:43.400 This is a more of the installation instructions, build a Docker image, right? And there's an error there. 22:43.400 --> 22:48.200 If you see the error link to the comment issue, or very easy, you put into 18. They're using 22:48.280 --> 22:54.280 you've been to 18. So can you in the prize with this? Yes. This one, the Nobel prize is 22:54.280 --> 23:03.640 essentially. Yeah, it's funny, I know. Hidden tricks in your project in your code. Because again, 23:03.640 --> 23:07.400 I mean, you want to keep yourself sane, right? If you apply all of this, you just, 23:08.440 --> 23:14.200 you may start screaming yourself and you don't want that to happen. You can add features to your 23:14.200 --> 23:19.000 software configuration options. Just don't document them, right? Keep them to yourself. 23:19.960 --> 23:23.400 The very easy way of doing that is using environment variables. You set an environment 23:23.400 --> 23:29.000 variable that's sort of hidden, right? And then if it is set, you're sort of to react to it and 23:29.000 --> 23:33.560 does something sensible. Right? They should be hard to find. If the package manages to discover them, 23:33.560 --> 23:38.360 you're screwed. Like don't use the project name as the pre-t fix for the environment 23:38.360 --> 23:43.240 variable. You use something else, otherwise it's too easy to find. And the value that is used for 23:43.320 --> 23:48.120 that environment variable should be something very specific, like not one or own, something else. 23:49.160 --> 23:54.280 So a small example in Python, I hope most of you know Python, right? So you just grab the environment 23:54.280 --> 24:01.000 variable. And if it is set to something, you don't run a test. Pad example, right? It's easy to find. 24:01.000 --> 24:05.480 It's right there. Any decent package manager will find it. Just make it a bit more involved. 24:07.080 --> 24:12.920 Right? So use it. Use a different prefix. Make sure it's not like a single string. 24:13.320 --> 24:17.320 Definitely make sure it's not uppercase, but uppercase it on the fly. And then make sure you have 24:17.320 --> 24:20.840 a magic value that has to be set, not just one, but something else. 24:23.320 --> 24:28.280 Built tools, you all know this is coming as well. So aim for maximum damage. 24:29.240 --> 24:30.600 Can never go wrong with CMake. 24:31.000 --> 24:43.400 See, make all fuses. Everybody, there's many talks, many blog posts that explain you why CMake is 24:43.960 --> 24:49.400 total to crap. It's all over Hacker News as well. Like I would give up my first born if I never 24:49.400 --> 24:55.800 have to, you see, make again. Many people are not very happy with CMake. There's more about 24:55.880 --> 25:00.440 built tools, you can say, you can combine multiple ones. You don't need to stick to just CMake. 25:00.440 --> 25:06.200 Like mix it up, use other ones as well. You can, you can call CMake and make from a set of 25:06.200 --> 25:10.360 dot pi. It's Python code, you can do whatever you want. We see this all the time in a while. 25:10.360 --> 25:17.160 That happens. Sure. Three? Yeah, sure. Cargo just levels. Again, combine stuff. 25:18.920 --> 25:24.360 Add some answer, but why not? Yeah. You can have a script called configured dot pi right at 25:24.440 --> 25:33.080 in Pearl. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. If you have a Python project, make sure you 25:33.080 --> 25:40.440 have all these files in there. And you can have good reasons to have all of them. Several of them 25:40.440 --> 25:45.400 allow you to declare dependencies, like requirement, text, pi project, environment, be 25:45.400 --> 25:50.440 homeless, more for Konda. But you can declare dependencies in all of them. Make sure it's inconsistent. 25:50.440 --> 25:58.040 Right? Don't do the same thing in the different files. It doesn't make sense. Sorry. It doesn't have 25:58.040 --> 26:01.560 this for Python. It's very easy to do. I guess for other things you can do this as well. 26:01.560 --> 26:05.880 It doesn't have to be only in Python. But you're right. Maybe you add them and it doesn't have any 26:05.880 --> 26:12.040 Python code. That's actually good as well. Also, build tools have their own dependencies, right? 26:12.040 --> 26:16.440 Pick a build tool that has like 10 dependencies just to get the build tool to work. Because again, 26:16.520 --> 26:22.040 levels make them sweat. And if you're not just about choosing the build, it's also how you use them. 26:23.240 --> 26:31.000 You can see make as a runtime dependency for your software. Why not? I mean it has functionality. 26:31.000 --> 26:36.520 If there's a function there that you find that does something useful, make it a runtime dependency. 26:36.840 --> 26:49.080 There was a comment there. Forking is coming up. Yeah, you're too fast. Forking is coming. 26:51.560 --> 26:56.680 If see make is not bad enough. Try basil, right? You can get stickers at fuzz them on basil. 26:58.360 --> 27:05.080 Basil, basil, I don't know. More build tools. Sure, why not? If there's documentation on the build tools, 27:05.160 --> 27:10.600 don't read it. Or if there is documentation only use like previous versions. 27:12.120 --> 27:17.480 If there's best practices, don't use them. But just copy stuff from random repositories that you 27:17.480 --> 27:22.200 find. Especially stuff that hasn't been touched 10 years for 10 years. That's the stuff you want. 27:22.200 --> 27:26.760 There's like a classic remake and a modern remake. Don't let me the difference. But I know there's 27:26.760 --> 27:34.200 a difference. Go for the classic stuff. It's more stable. Yes, the classic stuff is more stable. Of course. 27:34.280 --> 27:39.800 But do make sure that you require the very latest teammate version. There's a CMake 4. 27:39.800 --> 27:45.560 Stuff is broken in it. Use that. And if you're lucky if they do a new CMake release, 27:46.360 --> 27:51.960 it will have a regression. You will hit that regression. Perfect. There's actually very useful 27:51.960 --> 27:57.960 website. New releases.io. You can give them your email address. You register to specific projects. 27:57.960 --> 28:02.360 You can get an email as soon as there's a new release. That's when you want to adopt it. They want. 28:05.000 --> 28:10.120 You can use typos and file names and commands as well in your documentation. Just make things look a bit weird. 28:10.120 --> 28:20.920 Like this. Right? So this is... The NAIC-FC-Make lists and type it or take the output, 28:20.920 --> 28:27.080 pushing into pipe project.com. I don't know what this means. Now, some day, a package amount 28:27.080 --> 28:30.040 you will say they must have a good reason for doing it like this. They're going to spend their 28:30.040 --> 28:36.120 whole weekend on a trying to figure it out. Yeah, binary. One of these could be a binary, 28:36.120 --> 28:44.680 sure. Why not? So they have no idea what's going on. Sorry, you can only stuff like installs 28:44.680 --> 28:54.600 on a Tuesday? That's brilliant. That's a bit obvious, right? Just make it only on full moon or 28:54.600 --> 29:05.320 something. Yeah. Software testing. Sorry? Depending on your... Wait, that's also coming. 29:08.360 --> 29:13.400 Testing is important. If package managers install your software, they won't have to have some way 29:13.400 --> 29:21.000 of testing it. Very often they have no idea what the software does. Use this to your benefit. Make it 29:21.080 --> 29:26.680 difficult. Aim for a test with that just takes forever to run, because they'll get up. They'll 29:26.680 --> 29:33.720 machine will burn down. I don't know. Do you know what I think? Yeah, I'd like to make them guess. 29:33.720 --> 29:39.880 Yeah, how long it will take. Very good. Flake it tests are good, right? The package manager 29:39.880 --> 29:43.560 thinks that all the tests are important. They all have to pass. You know which ones are flaky, 29:43.560 --> 29:50.760 which ones you can ignore. Fine. Again, tests can have dependencies, right? You have testing tools. 29:50.760 --> 29:56.200 That may have dependencies themselves. You can build up the stack even more. So just make sure they 29:56.200 --> 30:00.440 have a lot of work to do before they can even run your tests, let alone run into the flaky ones. 30:01.240 --> 30:07.320 My torch is a very good example of this. It has a massive test to me. If you run the full thing, 30:07.320 --> 30:14.760 it's 250,000 tests. Well, over it. If you run it on a single machine, it takes easily 36 hours. 30:14.760 --> 30:20.440 If your machine is a bit too old, two full days is not an exception. They change it every release. 30:20.760 --> 30:25.240 Like, they throw stuff around, rename, restructured things. So if you had tricks, environment 30:25.240 --> 30:30.440 variables that they do have, they rename them across releases, all these things. Here's an example. 30:31.080 --> 30:36.680 I work on easy build. This is for the relatively recent version of PyTorch. It spits out a result. 30:36.680 --> 30:44.920 550 to test failures out of 261,000 something. So 99.98% of test is passing. Is that good enough? 30:45.320 --> 30:50.520 Are the tests that are failing important? How should I know? 30:50.520 --> 30:56.680 And a real package manager will always try to go for the 100%. So that's a very tempting to make 30:56.680 --> 31:03.640 sure the full thing passes. Okay. Put in a test that always fails on a full moon. 31:06.040 --> 31:10.280 Flake, you're in control over the test. You can make them flaky in an interesting ways. 31:11.000 --> 31:14.840 All right. I like the heckling. It's good. Excellent. Keep it going. 31:15.720 --> 31:19.400 Let's challenge you a bit as well. Let's do a live poll, right? 31:20.760 --> 31:24.440 I'll count to three. This is important. Wait for the three. 31:25.080 --> 31:29.320 Right? And then scream, you think is the correct answer. According to you, one answer. 31:30.200 --> 31:34.520 Each. Here comes the question. Don't scream yet. 31:35.080 --> 31:41.640 There's a countdown coming. Wait for the countdown. Which programming language is most likely 31:42.200 --> 31:48.520 to make package manager scream? Again, think about it first. No screaming yet. 31:49.880 --> 31:56.280 Here's the countdown. One, two, three. 31:56.280 --> 32:10.440 Ooh, no. It's C++. If you don't know it's C++, I don't know where to begin with this. 32:12.360 --> 32:21.400 The standard library is okay. It's a standard library. If you have, if you compile C++ program, 32:21.400 --> 32:29.560 it really, any compiler, the error messages are, this has been my life for 20 years. 32:30.760 --> 32:37.320 Trying to make sense. Again, Ella Lems. Yeah. Templates in C++. If you don't know what they are, 32:37.320 --> 32:42.040 look into them. You want to use them. You want to do meta programming in C++. 32:42.040 --> 32:46.600 Meta programming is when your stuff is building. It's actually running your code as well. 32:46.680 --> 32:52.760 So you can do a rate ratio while the thing is compiling. Why not? Yeah, it's perfect. 32:53.240 --> 32:58.920 Linus hates it. The FBI hates it. This is official. The US has done guidelines on don't 32:58.920 --> 33:08.200 use C++ for memory safety. So you want to use it, right? And the name plus plus searching for it. 33:08.200 --> 33:14.520 Yes. There's an excellent talk on this. The worst programming language of all time. It's a two-hour 33:14.600 --> 33:21.640 rant by a guy. And he's hitting exact point after point after point. It's all correct without 33:21.640 --> 33:28.040 repeating himself too much. Two hours in a row. You can not argue that C++ is not the correct answer. 33:29.480 --> 33:35.720 There are others though. Python is nice. All the installation tools, set of tools, 33:36.120 --> 33:40.200 combine them, especially in supercomputers, combine them as amazing. It fills up everybody's 33:40.280 --> 33:45.640 home directory, everybody likes it. Python 4 may be coming soon, right? So there's this free 33:45.640 --> 33:51.560 threading thing, no more gel. That would be a good reason to release a Python 4. How many of you are 33:51.560 --> 33:58.120 all enough to remember the Python 2, 2, Python 3 situation? Most of them. If Python 4 is coming, 33:59.080 --> 34:14.760 it's a bit weird. I think there's some interesting concepts in there. Poor wing of them, okay? 34:14.760 --> 34:23.560 Yeah. Lots of common custom terminology. No way too early. Monads are coming, sort of. 34:24.360 --> 34:30.360 Fortran is not dead. Not at all. It has new standards. It's been there since the 50s. 34:30.920 --> 34:36.120 It's number 12 and this Tiobi index of most popular programming languages. Everybody's still using it. 34:36.120 --> 34:41.400 In scientific programming, it's everywhere, right? So you use it. Learn it. Make people suffer. 34:43.160 --> 34:52.840 C sharp. C++ is enough. You can use C sharp. Java script is, I'm not even gonna, it's a crazy language 34:53.000 --> 34:58.040 and then there's NPM on top. It's amazing. Or there's many other options. There's OCamo. 34:58.040 --> 35:02.840 There's Haskell if you want to use Monads. I guess you can do another language as well. There's 35:02.840 --> 35:13.080 prologue. How many of you have tried to use prologue? Okay. Put things in make sense. There's a 35:13.080 --> 35:20.120 couple. Okay. Many other examples. Bash is a good one. Bash can get very weird, very quickly. 35:20.200 --> 35:24.280 And there's a new prologue language every day. So again, make sure you pick up on them. Use them. 35:24.840 --> 35:31.240 Make sure they are new to the package management as well. Right. You're all language. Yeah. It could be the new one. 35:31.240 --> 35:40.040 Sure. If you're doing software, prologue language that has to be compiled, first. Very good. 35:40.040 --> 35:44.920 Another tool to your toolbox that can be used to mess things up. The compiles makes you 35:45.000 --> 35:50.520 plus plus even worse than it already is. Compiles are massive. They're huge. They're complex. 35:50.520 --> 35:55.800 They're impossible to get into, to study them, to fix bugs that you may run into. If the compiler 35:55.800 --> 36:00.600 crashes, they're just lost. Like forget it. You'll never figure it out. And if you're doing any 36:00.600 --> 36:05.080 series work, especially in computing, you want to compile your stuff down to a binary so that 36:05.080 --> 36:10.040 can be fast. So you really need to use compiles. Again, the error messages I know, it wasn't the last 36:10.040 --> 36:15.800 slide as well. But screen filling error messages that you don't even know what all the words mean. 36:15.800 --> 36:23.240 It's amazing. Defaults of compiles change a lot. Like GCC has good documentation. Well, 36:23.240 --> 36:30.120 it has documentation. That tells you what has changed about the impact maybe. You get like disappearing 36:30.120 --> 36:34.520 include suddenly you need to add the include before it was automatic. Now it's not anymore. I'm sure 36:34.520 --> 36:40.840 they have good reasons to do it. Compiles have dependencies too. Like this XKCDC, this could be 36:40.840 --> 36:45.800 a compiler on top. It depends on all the stuff already. They even depend on each other. If you 36:45.800 --> 36:51.480 need to build a compiler, you need another compiler to be, how do you start this? Yeah. And there's 36:51.480 --> 36:58.040 a lot of diversity. There's GCC, there's LVM, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, I can go on. Explore the 36:58.040 --> 37:02.680 alternatives. Try to use compiles that the package menu is not familiar with. You don't need 37:02.760 --> 37:08.360 to stick to GCC. It's not because everybody else does that you need to. And even better, 37:08.360 --> 37:13.640 try to make sure that GCC doesn't work. You can do stuff in your code if you know about a good 37:13.640 --> 37:20.920 bug in GCC that's been long standing and you can trigger your code. Use it. Yeah. Compiler 37:20.920 --> 37:25.880 extensions, compiling trends exist as well. Yeah, there's all stuff you can make sure your code 37:25.880 --> 37:30.680 only works with one one. TensorFlow, the people who have seen my previous talk, this has been 37:30.680 --> 37:38.760 the pain of my existence for years. It's implemented in C++, number one. They have pre-built 37:38.760 --> 37:43.640 binaries on PIPI, but they're generic. So generic means they're slow, essentially. They work anywhere, 37:43.640 --> 37:48.440 but you don't really want to use them. You want to build them from source. This is real next thing. 37:48.440 --> 37:54.840 Don't look at them. It still uses base, less configuration too. Good. Everybody loves base. 37:55.560 --> 38:01.800 They stopped recommending GCC. They said, you need clang now to build TensorFlow. If you report 38:01.800 --> 38:06.920 problems to the MHCC, I think a recent version of TensorFlow even literally makes GCC crash, 38:06.920 --> 38:11.640 did you say, sorry, we'll recommend clang. So you're on your own. There's a magic environment 38:11.640 --> 38:16.200 variables everywhere when you install this thing. Guess what they start with, not with TensorFlow. 38:16.200 --> 38:22.040 They start with TF because TensorFlow would be too long. And bonus, if you know about one, 38:22.600 --> 38:27.560 like TF need clang, you can't find an indentmentation, so it doesn't exist. 38:29.080 --> 38:34.520 And this comment here, this is from even before my last talk, it's part of easy 38:34.520 --> 38:39.960 build that shows how to build TensorFlow. And it has a command where part of the command is slash, 38:39.960 --> 38:44.440 slash, TensorFlow something something. And they're going to comment it like the double slash must be a 38:44.440 --> 38:48.600 type of, right? No, it's not, that's how base it works, you know? 38:50.600 --> 38:55.800 Dr. reversioning, yeah, don't waste this opportunity, this is a very good one. You can confuse people 38:55.800 --> 39:01.240 quite a lot with software versions. You can suggest that you're using semantic versioning, but then 39:01.240 --> 39:07.640 don't, right? Ever since Python three years or least, almost every Python three version 39:07.640 --> 39:11.640 has breaking changes in them. So they're not using semantic version, they're not telling you 39:11.640 --> 39:15.240 that using semantic versioning, but it sort of looks like they do, same thing for Lua. 39:16.360 --> 39:21.080 If you want to, if you want to have creative, you can start with calendar version. Like you don't 39:21.080 --> 39:24.520 know you're working on it, don't know when it's going to be good enough. If it's good enough, 39:24.520 --> 39:29.560 release one dot zero, then change your mind. Next, please make it zero dot x, keep going like this, 39:29.560 --> 39:33.800 let the package manage to figure out what the latest version is. They will have no clue. 39:34.760 --> 39:39.160 Again, a real example is the F5, some people from the scientific community may notice, 39:40.120 --> 39:46.680 stable releases of HDF5 have an even minor number. So one dot eight, one dot ten. 39:47.640 --> 39:54.200 Development releases, like you mean trunk, no, no releases, but development, so don't use them, 39:54.200 --> 39:58.760 have an alt minor number. But the major number is one, which is odd. 40:00.200 --> 40:08.440 Okay. Now, I had this idea for a while to put this in the slides, but they have HDF5, 40:08.520 --> 40:13.560 2 dot zero and adopted semantic versioning. So no more even odd. Why did they do that? 40:13.560 --> 40:19.960 Is it because zero is not odd or even or, or they like on short and said that we do 2 dot 40:19.960 --> 40:27.560 2 was the first release? Yeah, you're always getting the best. You can read up on this on this 40:27.560 --> 40:35.320 URL. Look at the URL. It's not because it should be hard to find, I guess. 40:36.280 --> 40:40.840 Forking somebody mentioned forking. Forking encouraged people to forke your software, 40:40.840 --> 40:45.800 tell them not to rename the software. Use the same name just with a different versioning scheme. 40:45.800 --> 40:50.920 Open phone does this. It's scientific simulation software. There's like three different version 40:50.920 --> 40:55.080 of open phone. The only way you can tell them apart is based on the version number. One uses like 40:55.080 --> 41:00.360 year versioning, the other just one X2 X, and the other one and yet something else. But the only 41:00.440 --> 41:05.400 there are only open phone. Open from dot com, open from dot org are two entirely different versions. 41:07.400 --> 41:11.560 All right, I'm slowly getting to the end here, while on time. There's a couple of things we didn't 41:11.560 --> 41:16.040 get to cover. I talked a little bit about Python, but there's I could talk the whole day about 41:16.040 --> 41:23.240 Python. Don't look up UV. You don't want containers or you can build your own messy world 41:23.240 --> 41:27.880 and the container and you give it to someone else. You see, trust me, this is fine. I won't tell you 41:27.880 --> 41:36.120 how it's built, but it's fine. Make it all, how do you make your software, can you make your software 41:36.120 --> 41:44.360 depend on Kubernetes? Can oh yes, then you should. Yes, then you should. Make sure while the installation 41:44.360 --> 41:49.160 is going of your software, while the build is going, download stuff from the web. You want to make 41:49.160 --> 41:53.960 sure the system is online, the internet is there forever, nothing ever disappears, 41:54.120 --> 41:59.400 same thing in test, make tests, download one megabyte data files because you don't want them in 41:59.400 --> 42:06.360 your source code. That would be insane. Gargo is very good at this. So, private server. Yeah, 42:06.360 --> 42:16.680 I need a password. Yeah. Yeah. Again, build tools, test tools. Yes. If you produce error messages 42:16.680 --> 42:21.480 during installation, you're in control, right? You can make them very confusing, very misleading, 42:22.120 --> 42:25.720 print out errors that are religious warnings, print out warnings that are actually errors. 42:27.800 --> 42:32.200 The pip is very good at this. If you do pip that's called something else, it gives you like a wall of 42:32.200 --> 42:37.240 text and the actual error is like the tent line or something and then a whole bunch of junk below that. 42:40.600 --> 42:44.040 And one thing I didn't talk about, then which is important in scientific computing and I guess 42:44.040 --> 42:49.240 more general as well. There's upcoming CPU families, arm is really here everywhere, people have 42:49.320 --> 42:54.680 laptops with arm, risk five is coming soon, so all of this is going to get a lot more reverse than 42:54.680 --> 43:00.040 it already is very soon. All right, and there's probably stuff I missed, right? So if you know about 43:00.040 --> 43:05.240 other stuff, shout as long as there's time or come and talk to me, I'll be here all weekend, 43:05.240 --> 43:07.000 come have a beer. Thanks a lot. 43:20.200 --> 43:29.560 If there are now or any questions, I may be in trouble. Do we have any questions or heckles, 43:29.560 --> 43:37.480 suggestions? Raise your hand if you have any questions. My nickname is, that's a secret. 43:37.480 --> 43:42.600 I won't tell you how to pronounce it. If you want to learn how I got the nickname, 43:42.600 --> 43:47.960 if I understand it correctly, uh, lots of researchers from the physics department in New 43:47.960 --> 43:52.280 Amterpa are calculating again now. What is the worst thing you encounter with them? 43:53.400 --> 43:59.240 Sorry, researchers in the physics department of the anthrop university are now mostly calculating 43:59.240 --> 44:04.360 again. Now that Amterpa's made your money. What is the worst problem you had with them? 44:05.160 --> 44:10.440 What is the worst problem you had with them? The worst problem with the people from Antwerp. 44:10.440 --> 44:14.840 I don't tell people apart. I barely know names when I answer questions, so 44:15.800 --> 44:21.640 No, there's no, it's not like people from Antwerp were smarter or worse than in others. No. 44:26.200 --> 44:31.400 We got in build systems. You don't need to stick to see make a base. You can 44:31.400 --> 44:36.760 wide your own build system, just for your own project. Yes. Looking at your own form. 44:37.480 --> 44:42.440 Open form, yeah. I didn't mention that, but open form does this. Open form has W make, 44:42.520 --> 44:47.800 sounds familiar, something totally different. It always has exit code zero, whatever happens. 44:48.680 --> 44:52.040 If the build fails, all good. 44:57.000 --> 45:03.720 Here, I've got a question. Why didn't you mention about moving tags in the repo? 45:04.280 --> 45:08.760 Moving targets? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't mention that, but it's not because you 45:08.760 --> 45:13.960 tag something that it has to stay there forever. This is something I mentioned in my last talk, 45:13.960 --> 45:19.160 I guess I didn't mention it here. But yeah, if you tag something today, change it tomorrow. 45:19.160 --> 45:22.840 Why not? I mean, just move the tag. We actually called PyTorch doing this at some point. 45:24.040 --> 45:31.880 Yeah, rewrite history. You forgot about keeping track of versioning in Excel. 45:32.440 --> 45:38.440 In the spreadsheets, in the zip file. Yeah. Yeah. 45:40.680 --> 45:49.400 In a word document, yeah. Levels. How many of these are applicable to automating your updates 45:49.400 --> 45:55.720 with dependable? Oh, sorry. Yeah, how many are these? I'm not sure if dependable is going to 45:55.720 --> 46:01.800 like what you're doing here. And if it likes it, what I'm doing here? Yeah. I don't know. Does it? 46:03.400 --> 46:07.480 Well, a dependable is running. This is my level of open source. Let the dependable do it 46:07.480 --> 46:13.480 with sting and make the noise. It's just ignore it. Everybody does. No. You get the emails, 46:13.480 --> 46:15.960 you get the alerts, and then you say, yeah, maybe tomorrow. 46:19.000 --> 46:24.520 Hello. Oh, you should do daily releases. Are your release pages? 46:25.480 --> 46:30.680 Hello. Are there? Yeah. Okay. You should have daily releases. So you could make your release pages 46:30.680 --> 46:34.760 as long as possible. You don't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, release like every commit. Yeah. 46:37.320 --> 46:44.440 And you don't need to, the tag could be the commit idea itself. Because it doesn't sort, right? 46:44.840 --> 46:55.640 I recommend to not use a version control system, but just release tablets and only the latest one. 46:55.640 --> 47:01.640 For example, live media removes stuff that has been released before, because it has had bugs, right? 47:01.640 --> 47:06.920 So why would you ever, and also release on multiple platforms with different content in the 47:06.920 --> 47:12.280 tablets? Oh, yeah. And please make sure that the content of the tablet doesn't match the tag. 47:12.280 --> 47:16.040 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pipi, tagging. Yeah. 47:18.280 --> 47:24.200 Only published patch files open phone. No, not open phone. Warf does this weather modeling software. 47:24.200 --> 47:28.520 They release something, and then they have not even patch files. They have a documentation 47:28.520 --> 47:33.000 page that says for Warf version 3. This is what you want to change. Go to line in this file. 47:33.960 --> 47:41.400 Check the previous talk. You think you have good ideas, but there are three levels deeper than you are. 47:43.400 --> 47:49.640 But we're not also work to ship your dependency source code in your repository. 47:49.640 --> 47:55.320 Yes. Yeah, and change it just enough. Yes, that you cannot use the system library. 47:55.320 --> 47:59.400 Even if they think they know what they're dealing with, no, they're not because you can't. 47:59.400 --> 48:05.880 Hey, you meant us this. Yeah, many people, many tools do this. It's way easier than, yeah, more. 48:07.480 --> 48:14.360 Something I have so wants in real life. In the link in the documentation, make and then link 48:14.360 --> 48:19.880 like randomly something else. Be creative. Be creative. It's great. Record them, yeah. Yeah. 48:20.040 --> 48:28.360 The fundamental question, why to use English? Why to use it? 48:35.800 --> 48:39.480 That that's falls into the confusing category for documentation. Use the Norwegian. 48:39.560 --> 48:43.000 In the way it's whatever. 48:47.000 --> 48:52.440 Maybe one more. I have a question. I didn't. You mentioned Homebo. I mean, 48:52.440 --> 48:57.640 Rust has its own terminology, but only for people who just Rust. Homebo has its own terminology for 48:57.640 --> 49:03.720 every package. Homebo and homebo. No, so Mike Mike made me still be in the room. He's bigger than me. I'm not going to. 49:04.680 --> 49:10.360 I mean, Blue has it's all related to beer, so it should be to your tests. 49:13.560 --> 49:15.800 I don't know if Mike is in the room, so I'm not going to answer that one. 49:18.840 --> 49:25.800 Looking at the time, I must say we should end here. It was a great fun. Thank you very much. 49:25.800 --> 49:35.800 Maybe give a warm applause.