WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:19.040 So, for the next talk, I'd like to welcome Olga Dürhov, he's been one of the very first 00:19.040 --> 00:34.040 employees of Souser, founder of Unclied, Uncloud and since 2025, he's a manager at B1 systems. 00:34.040 --> 00:42.040 He's talking about Linux on the desktop while digital sovereignty starts here. 00:42.040 --> 00:44.040 Give him a warm applause. 00:44.040 --> 00:51.040 Thank you. 00:51.040 --> 00:57.040 Thank you so much as Souser was founded in 1992 and I joined in April in 1993. 00:57.040 --> 01:03.040 It's almost 33 years now in the open source business and of course also in the world 01:03.040 --> 01:06.040 of open source communities and that's great. 01:06.040 --> 01:13.040 And the virtual sovereignty was not really known back then, but now it gets so important. 01:14.040 --> 01:21.040 Even more so because there is somebody in the White House which makes us very every morning 01:21.040 --> 01:22.040 what's the new thing. 01:22.040 --> 01:30.040 And at the same time, the Americans right now serve as a great single person for us 01:30.040 --> 01:38.040 because everywhere we have huge interest in all of Europe, in all of the world about digital sovereignty 01:38.040 --> 01:46.040 and we'll talk a little bit what that is and how it relates to Linux and how it relates to the desktop. 01:46.040 --> 01:52.040 Short interaction to my company were about 200 people, really all focused on open source. 01:52.040 --> 02:01.040 180 open source Linux experts, about 25 people focused on just Linux desktop working with corporations 02:01.040 --> 02:12.040 as well as governments to monitor, to support and keep things running up to 24 by 7. 02:12.040 --> 02:20.040 We're independent service providers who are not catering to particular Linux distribution. 02:20.040 --> 02:28.040 We support really mostly all of them including Nixon's and other things which are rather modern 02:28.040 --> 02:34.040 and I will also introduce to some even more modern ways of Linux distributions today. 02:34.040 --> 02:44.040 And of course we're all in the European Union subject to the European Union and data protection regulations which is a big part of digital sovereignty of course. 02:44.040 --> 02:50.040 So looking at digital sovereignty, it really starts with all of you. 02:50.040 --> 03:12.040 Everybody is involved in digital sovereignty with its technology choices and in regards of the desktop and really the interface between a human and the information technology is that piece of technique we have in front of us and we're logging in in the morning. 03:12.040 --> 03:18.040 So normally I ask the question who is running Linux but here that's not so helpful. 03:18.040 --> 03:24.040 So who is logging in the morning into a Microsoft account, hands up? 03:24.040 --> 03:30.040 That's quite a bit of people who is logging into a Google account in the morning. 03:30.040 --> 03:38.040 And who is logging into something digital sovereign like a keyclog with something his company who is organization is running. 03:38.040 --> 03:42.040 Okay, so it was about a certain, very, very good. 03:42.040 --> 03:53.040 And really that's where digital sovereign starts because if we're starting in the morning to give up our data to large corporations that's already where the challenge is start. 03:53.040 --> 04:06.040 So all of us are asked but also the organizations we work with, we work for are so important in that regards to provide us that digital sovereign technology. 04:06.040 --> 04:16.040 That allows us to be independent and take independent dependencies away from vendors including regular price increases. 04:16.040 --> 04:27.040 We see this very often if we look into Microsoft 365 as an example, the price is well increased by about 25% as of July 1st this year. 04:27.040 --> 04:35.040 So prices can increase if you are independent if you run digital sovereign you have choices. 04:35.040 --> 04:47.040 If many choices of course sometimes too many but in any case it gives you the financial independence and the freedom of choice and also the decentralization. 04:47.040 --> 04:57.040 And we see this very often when certain parts of the internet suddenly go down because some very centralized services have still a single point of failure. 04:57.040 --> 05:07.040 And we can't log in or we can't get our work done and that's also a challenge which we can solve with freedom of choice and decentralization. 05:07.040 --> 05:14.040 And that's some of what we want to provide and of course this needs a complete workplace. 05:14.040 --> 05:17.040 It needs an open source environment. 05:17.040 --> 05:26.040 It starts as a logical choice of course with a little desktop and then if we are an organization we however need to manage that. 05:26.040 --> 05:36.040 In order for a desktop to stay secure they need to be managed, they need to be controlled, they need to be somewhat monitored because this little client management. 05:36.040 --> 05:43.040 And that includes then the ability to brainstorm certain applications including a VPN. 05:43.040 --> 05:55.040 It includes the capability to preconfigure our secure browser to go to certain places in the internet which are secure but not to others. 05:55.040 --> 06:00.040 And of course we can tailor all of that to specific use cases. 06:00.040 --> 06:04.040 We also can enforce required security guidelines. 06:04.040 --> 06:06.040 We might have in our organization. 06:06.040 --> 06:16.040 One of the easy ones there I always come up with is USB devices on a classic mobile system. 06:16.040 --> 06:22.040 You can just disallow those or you can allow those if it's somebody who has to do it very regularly. 06:22.040 --> 06:28.040 And of course we can add all types of local software on top of that if needed. 06:29.040 --> 06:32.040 So what does Linux client management mean? 06:32.040 --> 06:39.040 Again we're starting with Linux as a software operating system governed by communities. 06:39.040 --> 06:47.040 Many here at Boston and it's not governed however by single corporations which is the huge difference. 06:47.040 --> 06:57.040 It's highly customizable and it has very low hardware requirements in the talk before we were talking about end of 10 which means that Microsoft Windows 10 06:57.040 --> 07:01.040 which is to 11 needs new hardware. 07:01.040 --> 07:12.040 We can continue to run that hardware with Linux which is great because it allows to eliminate electric waste and those types of things. 07:12.040 --> 07:16.040 And however there are quite some challenges here. 07:16.040 --> 07:19.040 There are many different Linux distributions. 07:19.040 --> 07:23.040 I think roughly every month and you want shows up. 07:23.040 --> 07:26.040 Everyone does what he want because I'm rude. 07:26.040 --> 07:29.040 I'm king I can do whatever I want to do. 07:29.040 --> 07:32.040 Desktop installations can be quite complex. 07:32.040 --> 07:35.040 They can be time consuming in regards of their configuration. 07:35.040 --> 07:39.040 An often that difficult integrations with the infrastructure. 07:39.040 --> 07:46.040 And a Linux desktop typically does not have building infrastructure built in management. 07:46.040 --> 07:51.040 So other operating systems commercial ones or an Apple or an employee device. 07:51.040 --> 08:01.040 They have built in management APIs sometimes from the original provider sometimes from specialized providers who are using that. 08:01.040 --> 08:07.040 And of course lots of IT security policies we want to make sure we can enforce. 08:07.040 --> 08:11.040 So what does Linux client management mean? 08:11.040 --> 08:13.040 What does it consist of? 08:13.040 --> 08:16.040 It's really many different open source technologies. 08:16.040 --> 08:18.040 It starts with four men. 08:18.040 --> 08:24.040 They have a great proof here just outside of the room on the lower level here. 08:24.040 --> 08:30.040 So four men is the main management console we're using. 08:30.040 --> 08:39.040 We also have things like a sort stack which we are using because we think for some desktop use cases. 08:39.040 --> 08:41.040 It's just the better choice. 08:41.040 --> 08:46.040 But you can also do configuration management with Ansible or Puppet. 08:46.040 --> 08:49.040 And we support many types of Linux distributions. 08:49.040 --> 08:52.040 Our typical choice is Ubuntu LTS. 08:52.040 --> 08:55.040 But other choices are also possible. 08:55.040 --> 09:00.040 And I will talk about immutable operating systems and some new choices later on. 09:00.040 --> 09:07.040 And that combined with Git and a way to do GitOps in a totally reproducible way. 09:07.040 --> 09:13.040 And as a single source of truth, we call Linux client management. 09:13.040 --> 09:18.040 And that's what we provide on top of a Linux operating system. 09:18.040 --> 09:20.040 And as said, it's all open source components. 09:20.040 --> 09:22.040 It's delivered as container images. 09:22.040 --> 09:25.040 So it can be very easy set up. 09:25.040 --> 09:30.040 However, on your own premises, it's not so easy to install yet. 09:30.040 --> 09:36.040 So one of the things we're working on is to make a software as a service available. 09:36.040 --> 09:42.040 Where each of you can manage one to 10 systems through the internet with your own organization. 09:42.040 --> 09:46.040 And we hope to have this available in the next two to three months. 09:46.040 --> 09:50.040 So if you want to be part of the alpha or better testing, 09:50.040 --> 09:52.040 there is my email on the slides. 09:52.040 --> 09:56.040 Please don't hesitate to reach out, find me here outside. 09:56.040 --> 10:01.040 And we get you on the list for testing that type of stuff. 10:01.040 --> 10:04.040 Yeah, so that's what we do there. 10:04.040 --> 10:06.040 And now I have a couple of examples. 10:06.040 --> 10:11.040 What we do for different types of client different types of industries. 10:11.040 --> 10:17.040 And how Linux on the desktop, which in the main time has increased in market share to about L. 10:17.040 --> 10:22.040 11% globally is so important for different industries. 10:22.040 --> 10:27.040 One of the projects we have done is in cooperation with Sendis. 10:27.040 --> 10:34.040 Sendis is the sender for digital sovereignty of public administration in Germany. 10:34.040 --> 10:39.040 Our main task for them is to actually do open source applications. 10:39.040 --> 10:47.040 Integrate into a stack called Open Desk, which is a secure open source all in one office and collaborations read, 10:47.040 --> 10:51.040 which is designed specifically for the public sector. 10:51.040 --> 10:56.040 So when we brought people those type of web applications, 10:56.040 --> 11:01.040 and those web applications include Colabora Online, 11:01.040 --> 11:06.040 a chat service called Element, next cloud, which is likely known to almost everybody here, 11:06.040 --> 11:11.040 open pro-checked, schizzi for video conferencing, 11:11.040 --> 11:16.040 XV key for email, open exchange, and for identity management, 11:16.040 --> 11:19.040 a solution called Nubus from Univention. 11:19.040 --> 11:22.040 When we brought all of those web things together, 11:22.040 --> 11:29.040 the first government agencies were coming to the same question I had at the beginning of the talk. 11:29.040 --> 11:36.040 Okay, but if we use this web browser from a Microsoft Windows environment, 11:36.040 --> 11:41.040 are we then digital sovereign, or is there something still missing? 11:41.040 --> 11:45.040 We did a first case study with them for one customer, 11:45.040 --> 11:52.040 where we also provided a Linux operating system with a secure browser, 11:52.040 --> 12:01.040 and we chose AUOS, which is a community effort as a proof of content for, 12:01.040 --> 12:07.040 in this case, a fedora-based operating system with a bootable container technology. 12:07.040 --> 12:14.040 So we chose that as a base, and then, of course, it's using KDE++, 12:14.040 --> 12:19.040 our KDE was right before, so perfect, good fit in that regard, 12:19.040 --> 12:24.040 and then it's integrated with the Linux management solution we provide. 12:24.040 --> 12:29.040 And of course, the challenges in a public organization are a little bit larger, 12:29.040 --> 12:33.040 because they have about 200 applications which are running on Windows today. 12:33.040 --> 12:39.040 So for each of those applications, we need to think with them together about running 12:39.040 --> 12:43.040 on a terminal server, putting it in the web-based environment, 12:43.040 --> 12:47.040 or what to do with those applications for the future, 12:47.040 --> 12:52.040 but at least the main worksuite, the main collaborations suite, 12:52.040 --> 12:58.040 the identity management system, and the operating system and browser is already covered. 12:58.040 --> 13:04.040 And that's roughly how this looks like with free e-par keyclog, 13:04.040 --> 13:11.040 and open disk, and then open VPN, and managed by Linux client management, 13:11.040 --> 13:14.040 and each of the people can now run Linux, 13:14.040 --> 13:18.040 this top, of course, this was a very small project right there. 13:18.040 --> 13:24.040 A little bit of a larger project we're doing together with a German government research organization, 13:24.040 --> 13:29.040 and there we have deployed Linux to about 200 systems, 13:29.040 --> 13:33.040 and for them, it's very important to stay secure. 13:33.040 --> 13:37.040 They also have, as they are part of some, 13:37.040 --> 13:42.040 thing where confidential documents of the government are taking care of, 13:42.040 --> 13:47.040 they have what's called a Sinoverk station, which is a tightly controlled workstation, 13:47.040 --> 13:50.040 where Linux can be installed as a VM. 13:51.040 --> 13:55.040 And as part of the security policies they have, 13:55.040 --> 14:00.040 virus and vulnerability analysis must happen all the time. 14:00.040 --> 14:03.040 So once we do with Linux client management, 14:03.040 --> 14:09.040 we ensure that a anti-virus system is always running on the system. 14:09.040 --> 14:14.040 Of course, we all know for Linux that might or might not be so important, 14:14.040 --> 14:19.040 so we just choose a claim maybe in this case an open source anti-virus scanner, 14:19.040 --> 14:24.040 but it's important for the security policy that a anti-virus system is running. 14:24.040 --> 14:28.040 So check done, and in the front end of Linux client management, 14:28.040 --> 14:32.040 we can see every day that the anti-virus has nicely run through 14:32.040 --> 14:38.040 and has not detected any challenges, or if it has, then it can be taken care. 14:38.040 --> 14:42.040 And then we talked already about this USB functionality, which is part there, 14:43.040 --> 14:47.040 so the operators can very easily switch that on and off, 14:47.040 --> 14:52.040 so people can call their help desk and say they need USB support today, 14:52.040 --> 14:58.040 or it can be switched off again in a nice and graphical environment. 14:58.040 --> 15:07.040 Another big part of our daily work in the team is clients in the automotive industry. 15:08.040 --> 15:12.040 Linux is important there for developers, developers for Android, 15:12.040 --> 15:17.040 developers for signal processing, developers for AI, 15:17.040 --> 15:23.040 AI locally runs about 30% faster on Linux than on any other operating system, 15:23.040 --> 15:25.040 so that's great. 15:25.040 --> 15:32.040 However, of course, they need to somehow integrate into what everybody else does. 15:32.040 --> 15:36.040 And that picture is kind of a mess unfortunately. 15:37.040 --> 15:42.040 So in the automotive industry, they have to have access to teams, 15:42.040 --> 15:47.040 they have to have 365, they need a certain VPN, 15:47.040 --> 15:51.040 so here very often we have a Linux operating system, 15:51.040 --> 15:55.040 we have a in this case, a known desktop environment, 15:55.040 --> 16:00.040 but then the challenge with integration of proprietary technology starts, 16:00.040 --> 16:05.040 we're installing Microsoft Edge, on Linux, it's fully supported by Microsoft, 16:05.040 --> 16:09.040 we're installing an outstack from Microsoft and Intunes, 16:09.040 --> 16:12.040 and with that we're able to get conditional access, 16:12.040 --> 16:16.040 and only that brings us into the corporate network. 16:16.040 --> 16:23.040 So very challenging environment in that regard with those different proprietary integration, 16:23.040 --> 16:26.040 but that's the reality we live in. 16:26.040 --> 16:33.040 Unfortunately, people don't have this full sovereign stack from Linux to the event, 16:33.040 --> 16:38.040 they see it, they need to integrate in all of those different things, 16:38.040 --> 16:42.040 and that's a big piece of our work. 16:42.040 --> 16:46.040 Another great case study from France, 16:46.040 --> 16:49.040 where we're unfortunately not involved, 16:49.040 --> 16:54.040 but we try to be involved in future brochures from Ministry and others, 16:54.040 --> 16:58.040 but this one I bring because it's a huge success in Europe. 16:58.040 --> 17:02.040 They have over 85,000 work stations on Linux, 17:02.040 --> 17:06.040 they have done this starting in 2005, 17:06.040 --> 17:09.040 originally with open office later with Libro office, 17:09.040 --> 17:14.040 they migrated to Linux based operating system in 2008, 17:14.040 --> 17:21.040 and have reached by now about 97% coverage across the organization. 17:21.040 --> 17:27.040 So that's where we want to go with all the large government organizations 17:27.040 --> 17:31.040 to deliver that type of digital sovereignty, 17:31.040 --> 17:35.040 and the savings they estimate is about 50 million, 17:35.040 --> 17:39.040 and savings is of course also an important thing for the government. 17:39.040 --> 17:43.040 But it's our stretch, we have another great example in Germany 17:43.040 --> 17:45.040 with the state of Schlitzwig-Holstein, 17:45.040 --> 17:51.040 they are already out there publicly saying that they have started to save 50 million euros 17:51.040 --> 17:53.040 in license costs every year, 17:53.040 --> 18:01.040 and more and more organizations can join in to this saving experience. 18:01.040 --> 18:03.040 So that's where we are today, 18:03.040 --> 18:06.040 and I wanted to show a little bit about an outlook 18:06.040 --> 18:11.040 in certain areas where we have to improve technology further 18:11.040 --> 18:14.040 to get to that stack we need. 18:14.040 --> 18:18.040 One is what's called immutable operating systems. 18:18.040 --> 18:21.040 A Linux desktop must be really, really secure. 18:21.040 --> 18:27.040 We don't want that any challenges from state actors 18:27.040 --> 18:29.040 or other malicious people happen. 18:29.040 --> 18:33.040 So one idea the Linux community came up with 18:33.040 --> 18:37.040 is those immutable and unchangeable operating systems. 18:37.040 --> 18:42.040 Except we have used a fedora-based environment here, 18:42.040 --> 18:45.040 where we're booting basically an image, 18:45.040 --> 18:48.040 a container image with what's called bootsy, 18:48.040 --> 18:53.040 and with that we have the advantages that we can do AB updates, 18:53.040 --> 18:56.040 that we can do rollbacks in a very easy way. 18:56.040 --> 19:00.040 And again, all of this can be controlled with Linux client management 19:00.040 --> 19:03.040 and provides additional security. 19:03.040 --> 19:10.040 And then in regards of the digital sovereign identity management solutions, 19:10.040 --> 19:13.040 when we look into those, 19:13.040 --> 19:16.040 we need to make sure that from our Linux desktop 19:16.040 --> 19:19.040 we can already directly reach them. 19:19.040 --> 19:23.040 That's easily possible with LDAP and technologies like SSD. 19:23.040 --> 19:29.040 However, we also want that we don't need to type 19:29.040 --> 19:33.040 always our 25 digits long password. 19:33.040 --> 19:36.040 So we need some more modern ways, 19:36.040 --> 19:41.040 like past keys or challenge requests for this two-factor desktop look in. 19:41.040 --> 19:44.040 So we're working quite a bit on that. 19:44.040 --> 19:48.040 We've patched some SSSD things to make that happen. 19:48.040 --> 19:52.040 And again, in a world where the already systems out there, 19:52.040 --> 19:54.040 we also need to integrate. 19:54.040 --> 19:57.040 We need to integrate with Microsoft Entra ID. 19:57.040 --> 20:00.040 And that's what is now done from a great project 20:00.040 --> 20:02.040 from Zumba called Himmel Blau. 20:02.040 --> 20:06.040 And that's another item we are doing packaging for 20:06.040 --> 20:09.040 and other things which we want to promote 20:09.040 --> 20:13.040 and make sure it goes into future Linux distributions. 20:14.040 --> 20:17.040 And again, this is what we want. 20:17.040 --> 20:22.040 A complete stack with sovereign identity management, 20:22.040 --> 20:25.040 sovereign identity access management, 20:25.040 --> 20:28.040 Linux desktop, a secure browser, 20:28.040 --> 20:33.040 and then all the great workspace software we can get 20:33.040 --> 20:37.040 from many, many contributions, communities, 20:37.040 --> 20:40.040 and also commercial providers. 20:40.040 --> 20:41.040 Both is possible. 20:41.040 --> 20:43.040 We need to integrate those things. 20:43.040 --> 20:47.040 And that's how we can get from 11% market share today. 20:47.040 --> 20:48.040 For world domination, 20:48.040 --> 20:52.040 Linux was already asking for him 93, 20:52.040 --> 20:56.040 and that world domination is what we want to do 20:56.040 --> 20:58.040 and get Linux out there everywhere. 20:58.040 --> 20:59.040 Thank you. 21:00.040 --> 21:09.040 We can get three questions, maybe. 21:09.040 --> 21:10.040 Yeah. 21:10.040 --> 21:11.040 All right. 21:11.040 --> 21:13.040 Many things are the great talk. 21:13.040 --> 21:15.040 I guess they're quite some questions. 21:15.040 --> 21:17.040 So, I'll start on the left. 21:21.040 --> 21:23.040 Thank you very much for your talk. 21:23.040 --> 21:25.040 My name is Nikola Petu. 21:25.040 --> 21:30.040 So, just to inform you the French administration 21:30.040 --> 21:35.040 is today developing also a personal Linux desktop 21:35.040 --> 21:40.040 based on Debion because Ubuntu is a pain. 21:40.040 --> 21:45.040 And Ubuntu is a pain because if you have more than 25 clients, 21:45.040 --> 21:48.040 you'll stack with pain a lot. 21:48.040 --> 21:51.040 So, the Ministry of Interior is developing 21:51.040 --> 21:55.040 as a two-year-old project already. 21:55.040 --> 21:59.040 It wants to deploy 3,000 by the year, 21:59.040 --> 22:04.040 by the end of the year, and 30,000 within three years. 22:04.040 --> 22:11.040 The Ministry of Finance in France wants to deploy 50,000 within three year, 22:11.040 --> 22:15.040 and the Ministry of Education 1 million. 22:15.040 --> 22:17.040 Great. 22:17.040 --> 22:20.040 That's what we need more of. 22:20.040 --> 22:23.040 And some of the great most of our customers, 22:23.040 --> 22:27.040 we do UN SNAP Ubuntu 4. 22:27.040 --> 22:30.040 So, we get rid of all the SNAP things, 22:30.040 --> 22:32.040 and then we already have more fun with, 22:32.040 --> 22:36.040 but we're also happy to use Debion as a base 22:36.040 --> 22:39.040 of course in the future. 22:39.040 --> 22:42.040 Appearism, we have several customers interested 22:42.040 --> 22:44.040 in digital sovereignty for their mobile phones, 22:44.040 --> 22:45.040 as well as PCs. 22:46.040 --> 22:48.040 Have you seen us with your customers also? 22:48.040 --> 22:50.040 We haven't seen mobile match yet. 22:50.040 --> 22:53.040 What we see is internet devices, 22:53.040 --> 22:56.040 it's spark stations for AI, 22:56.040 --> 22:59.040 all of those type of things. 22:59.040 --> 23:02.040 Mobile, we have not seen much to be honest. 23:02.040 --> 23:06.040 I think that's theoretically the stack we have 23:06.040 --> 23:09.040 for Linux client management should work with mobile as well. 23:09.040 --> 23:12.040 I saw in the talk before that 23:13.040 --> 23:16.040 the game station is running Katie already, 23:16.040 --> 23:19.040 so we have to see if we can do something with that, 23:19.040 --> 23:22.040 but not yet we'll have to check with the format 23:22.040 --> 23:25.040 and other people if that's possible. 23:25.040 --> 23:27.040 Hello. 23:27.040 --> 23:30.040 I work for university nearby and for university. 23:30.040 --> 23:33.040 I managed to convert to physics department. 23:33.040 --> 23:34.040 He said me for example, 23:34.040 --> 23:36.040 the department mostly to Linux obviously 23:36.040 --> 23:38.040 with the service and desktop. 23:39.040 --> 23:41.040 But the IT departments, 23:41.040 --> 23:44.040 they went from more or less self hosting everyone 23:44.040 --> 23:46.040 to moving all the way to the US, 23:46.040 --> 23:48.040 Microsoft 365, 23:48.040 --> 23:50.040 also helped us with all the sport in Windows. 23:50.040 --> 23:52.040 What do you advise? 23:52.040 --> 23:54.040 How can I educate him? 23:54.040 --> 23:57.040 It's a university, but still. 23:57.040 --> 23:59.040 Yeah. 23:59.040 --> 24:01.040 I think we need to start with 24:01.040 --> 24:03.040 that digital sovereignty story. 24:03.040 --> 24:06.040 Of course, that's complex and sometimes difficult. 24:06.040 --> 24:09.040 We, however, that's the way we need to go 24:09.040 --> 24:11.040 as a European society. 24:11.040 --> 24:13.040 There is no other way. 24:13.040 --> 24:15.040 So that's where we need to start. 24:15.040 --> 24:18.040 And I would hope that in a university 24:18.040 --> 24:21.040 there must be some Linux desktop somewhere. 24:21.040 --> 24:24.040 So we need to start with this integration. 24:24.040 --> 24:26.040 And yes, that's a little bit difficult. 24:26.040 --> 24:28.040 There is work in that note out, 24:28.040 --> 24:31.040 but we need to show them that Linux 24:31.040 --> 24:33.040 can integrate into their workplace, 24:34.040 --> 24:36.040 into their security speed, 24:36.040 --> 24:37.040 into the identity management, 24:37.040 --> 24:39.040 and then step by step, 24:39.040 --> 24:43.040 make those changes towards a 100% digital sovereignty. 24:43.040 --> 24:45.040 That's all I can recommend.