WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:09.080 Most conferences nowadays have a code of comment. 00:09.080 --> 00:13.600 Osis organizers are very happy to respond, but we're also hoping that we never have to 00:13.600 --> 00:14.600 use it. 00:14.600 --> 00:18.360 But that's what we're going to talk about today, what happens if someone breaks the rules? 00:18.360 --> 00:23.600 Exactly, because between the two of us we run plenty of events and we found that when 00:23.600 --> 00:28.640 something actually happens, the document matters way less than whether or not the organizers 00:28.640 --> 00:31.760 are prepared for what's next. 00:31.760 --> 00:32.760 So who are we? 00:32.760 --> 00:33.760 My name is Floor. 00:33.760 --> 00:37.000 I'm a Principal Program Manager at EDB. 00:37.000 --> 00:41.880 I'm a Postgres contributor through my work as a chair of the Postgres Community Code 00:41.880 --> 00:43.440 of Comment Committee. 00:43.440 --> 00:45.560 I'm on the Contributor Committee for Postgres. 00:45.560 --> 00:47.680 I'm on the Postgres Europe Diversity Committee. 00:47.680 --> 00:49.680 Lots of committees. 00:49.680 --> 00:55.240 Also I organize PDDA Lowlands, which is an event in the Netherlands for Postgres, and I'm 00:55.240 --> 01:00.360 a long-term DevOps-based organizer and core member as well. 01:00.360 --> 01:01.360 And I'm yours. 01:01.360 --> 01:05.640 I'm a tech lead for a Dutch company called Ogede, at our company where we think 01:05.640 --> 01:10.360 called Safe Place, where we practice a lot of things we're going to talk about as well. 01:10.360 --> 01:15.400 Besides my day job, I run DevOps-based Amsterdam, a Dutch cloud native day, I'm part 01:15.400 --> 01:19.760 of DevOps-based core, and, like Floor mentioned, we've done, I think we've got 10 years 01:19.760 --> 01:21.560 of experience between the two of us. 01:21.560 --> 01:23.560 Not between the two of us. 01:23.600 --> 01:31.160 Each, yeah, many, many years, and we've seen a lot, we want to give you some lessons 01:31.160 --> 01:33.640 learned and talk about how we do things. 01:33.640 --> 01:34.640 Exactly. 01:34.640 --> 01:37.240 And just to level set, this is not an entry-level topic. 01:37.240 --> 01:40.840 We're not going to talk about why you need a code of conduct, what is a code of conduct, 01:40.840 --> 01:41.840 how you write one. 01:41.840 --> 01:45.000 We assume that you have that knowledge already somewhat. 01:45.000 --> 01:49.360 We're also not going to talk about what happens when someone breaks the law at your event, 01:49.360 --> 01:52.440 which is something that, unfortunately, I have some experience with as well. 01:52.600 --> 01:55.000 I hope that you never have to have that experience. 01:55.000 --> 01:58.680 If someone breaks the law, you get the authorities involved. 01:59.800 --> 02:03.720 All right, so you start to organize your conference, and there's a lot of stuff to do. 02:03.720 --> 02:05.480 You have to get sponsors. 02:05.480 --> 02:07.800 You have to set up a code for paper. 02:07.800 --> 02:09.720 You have to refute 250 talks. 02:09.720 --> 02:13.320 Now, it's listed that AI takes a lot of time. 02:13.320 --> 02:16.600 And it needs to be catering, it needs to be conference-wide-wide. 02:16.600 --> 02:21.240 Kind of common is there, but it's, for some organizers, a bit of an afterthought. 02:21.320 --> 02:23.320 Because we have a good community, right? 02:23.320 --> 02:27.640 We have a good community, no instance was reported in the last five years, 02:27.640 --> 02:30.120 and if something happens, we'll know what to do. 02:30.120 --> 02:32.760 Yeah, famous last words. 02:32.760 --> 02:37.320 So, when something does happen, the hardest part is a defense itself. 02:37.320 --> 02:41.960 It is the scrambling to respond, because who should respond, right? 02:41.960 --> 02:43.480 Who is responsible for that? 02:43.480 --> 02:45.400 How fast is fast enough? 02:45.400 --> 02:47.240 Who should be involved in the decision? 02:47.240 --> 02:50.280 Who should not be involved in the decision? 02:50.280 --> 02:53.160 How is the communication with a person reporting an issue? 02:53.160 --> 02:55.160 Like, how do we do with that? 02:55.160 --> 02:57.080 What do we tell others? 02:57.080 --> 03:00.920 And when the answers to these questions aren't clear beforehand, 03:00.920 --> 03:05.560 organizers tend to freeze, because they don't want to get it wrong, right? 03:05.560 --> 03:07.960 And so, you're just waiting, waiting to talk to someone else, 03:07.960 --> 03:10.360 waiting to make that decision. 03:10.360 --> 03:13.000 The decision often gets even harder when there's power 03:13.000 --> 03:14.200 that makes involved, right? 03:14.200 --> 03:18.680 Because what if the person offending is a speaker, a keynote speaker, 03:18.680 --> 03:22.360 your platform's sponsor, or one of the organizers? 03:22.360 --> 03:24.920 That's very difficult as well. 03:24.920 --> 03:26.920 But waiting is not a neutral action. 03:26.920 --> 03:29.320 It's sort of signals to the person who's reporting an issue 03:29.320 --> 03:33.320 that you're not taking their experience seriously, 03:33.320 --> 03:37.000 and that you're not a safe space for them. 03:37.000 --> 03:39.560 So, we want to make sure to avoid any of that, 03:39.560 --> 03:42.040 because even if you wait a long time, 03:42.040 --> 03:44.920 and even if your decision is technically correct, 03:44.920 --> 03:47.160 it doesn't feel right. 03:47.960 --> 03:50.440 We've got a couple of scenarios for you. 03:50.440 --> 03:52.440 These are things that happen. 03:52.440 --> 03:55.560 We're not going in names, and we won't keep it blameless. 03:55.560 --> 03:56.920 I think that's from DevOps, right? 03:56.920 --> 03:57.560 Yes. 03:57.560 --> 03:58.760 Yes. 03:58.760 --> 04:01.400 And then, let's say, we have a thing called open spaces. 04:01.400 --> 04:03.800 It's very similar to the birds of a feather thing. 04:03.800 --> 04:06.280 We have a false them. 04:06.280 --> 04:08.120 It's an unconference type thing. 04:08.120 --> 04:09.400 You suggest a topic. 04:09.400 --> 04:10.840 We put it on the sticky. 04:10.840 --> 04:12.120 We put the stick in a whiteboard. 04:12.120 --> 04:14.520 We vote on the most interesting topics. 04:14.520 --> 04:16.360 We get a room to discuss that topic. 04:16.360 --> 04:18.680 No slides, no speaker. 04:18.680 --> 04:20.680 There's a bunch of people talking. 04:20.680 --> 04:25.640 At a 23 event, someone suggested the topic on women in tech, 04:25.640 --> 04:28.200 and getting more women in tech. 04:28.200 --> 04:29.960 The open space happened. 04:29.960 --> 04:32.840 Someone talked about how women with headscarves 04:32.840 --> 04:37.480 get preferential treatment over more competent and qualified men, 04:37.480 --> 04:40.760 and we didn't have anyone in room. 04:40.760 --> 04:43.800 We didn't have an organization in room or code of conduct, 04:43.800 --> 04:45.000 team member. 04:45.000 --> 04:48.280 After the open space, people came up to us talking about, 04:48.280 --> 04:49.000 hey, that happened. 04:49.000 --> 04:50.200 I was in room. 04:50.200 --> 04:51.480 That's very uncomfortable. 04:51.480 --> 04:53.960 No official report was made. 04:53.960 --> 04:57.320 But we decided, hey, this goes against our code of conduct. 04:57.320 --> 04:59.160 We're going to make a statement on stage, 04:59.160 --> 05:03.640 add to closing notes, floor did, reiterating, 05:03.640 --> 05:05.880 this type of behavior is not acceptable. 05:05.880 --> 05:08.680 And if we were in the room, we would have, 05:08.680 --> 05:12.040 it's very least, given that person warning or otherwise, 05:12.040 --> 05:14.920 maybe we removed them from the conference. 05:14.920 --> 05:19.800 Afterwards, multiple members of our community came up to both us, 05:19.800 --> 05:22.120 telling how they appreciated our comments, 05:22.120 --> 05:26.840 how they appreciated it, were very visible. 05:26.840 --> 05:30.040 And that was basically our lessons learned. 05:30.040 --> 05:33.160 Not only do you need to respond publicly 05:33.160 --> 05:37.640 if something publicly happens to reassure your community 05:37.640 --> 05:41.400 to show why your code of conduct is there. 05:41.400 --> 05:43.880 But what we also learned is just having the code of conduct 05:43.880 --> 05:45.400 in place is not enough. 05:45.400 --> 05:47.880 We started out with just having the code of conduct. 05:47.880 --> 05:51.160 We iterated with code of conduct training. 05:51.160 --> 05:54.760 And now we do these scenarios, we run through a week, 05:54.760 --> 05:56.520 two weeks before our conference. 05:56.520 --> 06:00.200 Every organizer, every volunteer, goes through that training. 06:00.200 --> 06:00.760 Yeah. 06:00.760 --> 06:02.440 And oftentimes, your team is not big enough, 06:02.440 --> 06:05.720 rights to have a person physically in every room. 06:06.200 --> 06:08.440 So something we definitely learned is to anticipate 06:08.440 --> 06:11.160 when a topic might be tricky to make sure 06:11.160 --> 06:12.840 that those rooms are at least covered by us. 06:12.840 --> 06:14.680 Yes, very much. 06:14.680 --> 06:15.480 Yeah. 06:15.480 --> 06:17.480 All right, for a different scenario, 06:17.480 --> 06:22.680 different days, Amsterdam 2024, there were global events happening 06:22.680 --> 06:24.440 or there are still global events happening 06:24.440 --> 06:30.360 that got some strong reaction in our community. 06:30.360 --> 06:33.880 One of our sponsors had their headquarters in Israel, 06:33.880 --> 06:36.120 and at the same time, there were a lot of protests in Amsterdam 06:36.120 --> 06:39.640 going on around the situation in Gaza. 06:39.640 --> 06:43.000 So as part of our preparation for the event, 06:43.000 --> 06:47.560 we decided to talk through a couple of what-if scenarios. 06:47.560 --> 06:50.840 So for instance, we talked to the rest of the organizers, 06:50.840 --> 06:55.160 what would happen if our sponsor, when they have their sponsor 06:55.160 --> 06:58.360 page on stage, if someone would, in the audience would 06:58.360 --> 07:01.320 send up and say something like free Palestine. 07:01.320 --> 07:04.280 We made sure that the MC knew exactly what their line was 07:04.280 --> 07:05.880 if something like that would happen. 07:05.880 --> 07:08.280 And a code of conduct, a team member was present in the room 07:08.280 --> 07:12.120 to make sure to talk to the person, shouting out, 07:12.120 --> 07:17.480 says comments, after the session ended to talk to this member 07:17.480 --> 07:21.320 to say, hey, interrupting someone, a community member, 07:21.320 --> 07:24.120 like you and me, that is just doing their job, 07:24.120 --> 07:25.400 goes against our code of conduct. 07:25.400 --> 07:27.160 We don't want to see that behavior at our event. 07:27.160 --> 07:29.800 This is not what we do. 07:29.800 --> 07:32.360 The sponsor page happens, nobody got up, 07:32.360 --> 07:35.320 nobody said anything, they went off without a hitch. 07:35.320 --> 07:37.880 The sponsor was very appreciative because we reached out to them 07:37.880 --> 07:40.680 before the event to tell them that we have 07:40.680 --> 07:42.920 talks through a couple of what-if scenarios. 07:42.920 --> 07:45.480 And so they were also aware what would happen 07:45.480 --> 07:48.360 if a situation would occur. 07:48.360 --> 07:52.200 Luckily, again, nothing happened, but they had some unpleasant 07:52.200 --> 07:53.640 experiences at other events. 07:53.640 --> 07:56.360 And so they were very happy that they were informed beforehand, 07:56.360 --> 07:59.560 and I didn't need to worry about it at all. 07:59.640 --> 08:02.600 Yeah, and that's the point to remember, the person there, 08:02.600 --> 08:05.640 just doing their job as a sponsor, they're shooting their job. 08:05.640 --> 08:07.960 That part of your community too, the code of conduct 08:07.960 --> 08:09.560 applies to them as well. 08:09.560 --> 08:10.280 Exactly. 08:10.280 --> 08:13.160 So we also had a speaker from Israel 08:13.160 --> 08:16.440 that we had reached out to beforehand as well. 08:16.440 --> 08:19.000 That person was not able to join the events 08:19.000 --> 08:21.480 because of travel restrictions, but similarly, 08:21.480 --> 08:24.680 we just prepared with them beforehand. 08:24.680 --> 08:28.120 And in 2025, we had two organizers join our team 08:28.120 --> 08:29.720 that are originally from Israel. 08:29.720 --> 08:32.680 And we just wanted to make sure to talk through them 08:32.680 --> 08:35.080 about the values that we have as the DevOps Day's 08:35.080 --> 08:38.680 Amsterdam organizing team, so that they would also know what 08:38.680 --> 08:41.800 would happen in any type of situation. 08:41.800 --> 08:45.240 So one of our speakers last year decided to wear a cafe. 08:45.240 --> 08:48.200 And because we already talked to our organizers, 08:48.200 --> 08:53.000 what would happen if someone wears a badge with, for instance, a flag, 08:53.000 --> 08:56.840 or anything like that, or a t-shirt with some phrase on it, 08:56.840 --> 08:59.240 they already knew how we would respond to it. 08:59.240 --> 09:03.560 And because they knew, they weren't faced by the incident at all. 09:03.560 --> 09:05.240 All right. 09:05.240 --> 09:09.160 Not all DevOps Day's events are organized by the same team, 09:09.160 --> 09:12.840 so some events may take a very different approach. 09:12.840 --> 09:17.880 One event comes to mind that took place in a university. 09:17.880 --> 09:21.080 Many student bodies are very active in protest. 09:21.080 --> 09:23.800 I don't know if you came in through the back of the room 09:23.800 --> 09:26.760 either, but there is something spray painted on one of the chairs. 09:27.560 --> 09:29.880 Just sort of like proving my points. 09:29.880 --> 09:33.160 And they felt like they didn't have enough manpower in the team. 09:33.160 --> 09:36.120 They didn't have a budget for external security either. 09:36.120 --> 09:40.040 And so just to make sure that everyone at the event felt safe, 09:40.040 --> 09:46.520 they decided to not take sponsorship from companies that are in a country 09:46.520 --> 09:49.400 that is currently in conflict. 09:49.400 --> 09:50.520 That is their choice. 09:50.520 --> 09:54.280 They wanted to make sure that they make a decision 09:54.280 --> 09:59.080 that the whole team is confident in applying. 10:00.440 --> 10:03.640 All right, so what do you actually need to prepare for? 10:03.640 --> 10:06.200 Perfect, it's the enemy you've done. 10:06.200 --> 10:08.680 You have to have a code of comment and it needs to cover, 10:08.680 --> 10:11.320 we think, the basic things. 10:11.320 --> 10:15.800 How can some more important issue? 10:15.800 --> 10:17.880 Is that a code of comment phone? 10:17.880 --> 10:20.360 Is that you find this person? 10:20.360 --> 10:21.640 Is that an email? 10:21.640 --> 10:25.560 That needs to be clear to the people wanting to report an issue. 10:25.560 --> 10:27.880 But also, is it named? 10:27.880 --> 10:29.000 It's the anonymous. 10:29.000 --> 10:31.240 An anonymous reporting can be very safe, 10:31.240 --> 10:34.280 but it's so hard to follow up on anonymous reports. 10:34.280 --> 10:37.720 So for here community, you might reach different answered them. 10:37.720 --> 10:39.000 We do for ours. 10:39.000 --> 10:44.120 We want, we usually care about having people visible. 10:44.120 --> 10:45.960 You can approach. 10:45.960 --> 10:48.680 But that's for our specifically developed space. 10:48.680 --> 10:51.000 What happens after a report is made? 10:51.000 --> 10:54.600 But also what kind of actions do you take? 10:54.600 --> 10:56.200 Can it be an apology? 10:56.200 --> 10:57.880 Does it have to be public? 10:57.880 --> 10:59.400 Is that private? 10:59.400 --> 11:01.240 Do you bounce someone from the conference? 11:01.240 --> 11:03.400 Do you refund that ticket if you do? 11:03.400 --> 11:06.760 That's all stuff you can think about before and out. 11:06.760 --> 11:10.040 And let's do these things come with trade-offs. 11:10.040 --> 11:13.640 Also, your kind of comment doesn't need to be perfect. 11:13.640 --> 11:15.160 Doesn't need to be technically correct. 11:15.160 --> 11:17.480 Doesn't need to cover every edge case. 11:17.480 --> 11:21.800 Because if you do, you run a risk of enforcing the code of comment 11:21.800 --> 11:24.920 to the letter of the code of comment, the not spirit. 11:24.920 --> 11:29.320 So someone might even abuse code of comment against another community member. 11:29.320 --> 11:30.520 We've seen that happen. 11:30.520 --> 11:31.480 Absolutely. 11:31.480 --> 11:32.760 That doesn't mean, by the way, that you 11:32.760 --> 11:35.960 do not need to invest any time in looking at your code of 11:35.960 --> 11:40.120 conduct, I'm making sure that maybe it needs an additional little refresh. 11:40.120 --> 11:44.600 So we had something a couple of years ago where people were ridiculed 11:44.600 --> 11:46.040 for wearing face masks. 11:46.040 --> 11:49.000 And we wanted to make sure that the code of conduct clearly states 11:49.000 --> 11:51.720 that wearing a face mask is a personal choice, 11:51.720 --> 11:54.840 and should not never be ridiculed. 11:54.840 --> 11:55.640 Yes? 11:55.640 --> 11:56.440 Yes, correct. 11:56.440 --> 11:58.280 OK, thanks. 11:58.280 --> 12:00.520 Thanks for confirming. 12:00.520 --> 12:04.280 All right, so we're talking about decisions a lot. 12:04.280 --> 12:06.840 One thing that is really important to decide up 12:06.840 --> 12:10.600 beforehand is who is responsible for what? 12:10.600 --> 12:13.160 So many conferences in our opening notes say, 12:13.160 --> 12:14.920 like, if you have an issue with anything, 12:14.920 --> 12:18.440 you go to the person wearing the orange shirt, or the green shirt, 12:18.440 --> 12:20.840 or the staff shirt. 12:20.840 --> 12:23.320 So that is something, sure. 12:23.320 --> 12:28.280 But you might also need to be more clear on what kind of issue you can 12:28.280 --> 12:32.520 bring to them, and what the action is that they will take after that. 12:32.520 --> 12:35.800 Like, are they the person to actually leave your report with? 12:35.800 --> 12:39.720 Or are they the person that will bring you to a person that is responsible 12:39.720 --> 12:41.000 for the code of conduct? 12:41.000 --> 12:46.920 So being a bit more clear about follow-up actions is very helpful. 12:46.920 --> 12:49.480 Because sometimes when someone is upset and they approach you, 12:49.480 --> 12:52.600 they might just want to, you know, vent to you, 12:52.600 --> 12:53.880 and then be done with it. 12:53.880 --> 12:57.640 So being clear, who can take what action is very helpful. 12:57.640 --> 13:02.200 We actually advocate for any event to have a dedicated code of conduct 13:02.200 --> 13:06.600 a response team that is their main or maybe their 13:06.600 --> 13:12.040 only responsibility is with handling code of conduct reports. 13:12.040 --> 13:14.840 Because organizers, you mentioned it beforehand, 13:14.840 --> 13:18.360 they're busy with all of these other things, and it's very, 13:18.360 --> 13:22.680 very stressful to get a code of conduct report on top of that. 13:22.680 --> 13:26.360 And again, you don't want to make sure that these, you know, 13:26.360 --> 13:29.640 a response to something like that is not delayed. 13:29.640 --> 13:33.560 It's very stressful to do code of conducts duty. 13:34.200 --> 13:37.320 It's not only a passive event, you're not just sort of like sitting there waiting 13:37.320 --> 13:41.320 for something to happen and waiting for someone to bring a report to you. 13:41.320 --> 13:44.280 You have to be vigilant during the entire event. 13:44.280 --> 13:50.280 Maybe you need to check social media too to make sure that there's no harmful messaging 13:50.280 --> 13:55.160 happening around your event on social media either. 13:55.160 --> 13:59.560 So a couple of things to maybe help your code of conduct response team with that 13:59.560 --> 14:04.120 is to create an on-call schedule for your team. 14:05.320 --> 14:11.320 For the annual postgres, Europe conference, we had a code of conduct phone, 14:11.320 --> 14:14.120 like you could have it, call an actual phone number, 14:14.120 --> 14:16.840 and the four people that served on the code of conduct team 14:16.840 --> 14:20.200 make sure to take turns taking this phone. 14:20.200 --> 14:24.520 So it's not burdened the whole time because you cannot be on call 14:24.520 --> 14:27.080 for four days in a row. 14:27.240 --> 14:29.400 And when you're creating a code of conduct response team, 14:29.400 --> 14:35.240 if you're convinced, then make sure that it's a diverse team in terms of gender as another, 14:36.680 --> 14:41.400 in other ways, to employers, make sure that there's from different employers too, 14:42.280 --> 14:46.200 and preferably have one person that is not an organizer. 14:46.200 --> 14:48.120 The next external code of conduct team member, 14:48.120 --> 14:52.440 because sometimes they're organized or as the offending party, 14:52.440 --> 14:56.280 and it can be really daunting for someone to go to your code of conduct team, 14:57.080 --> 15:02.120 to read out one of your peers, so that is definitely something 15:02.120 --> 15:05.640 that we want, you know, suggest to do. 15:07.240 --> 15:11.800 Yeah, we also very much advocate for practice. 15:11.800 --> 15:15.000 Practice does make perfect, but it makes better. 15:18.680 --> 15:21.720 And what I mean by that is you don't role play or anything, 15:21.720 --> 15:24.360 and you write that scenarios, the like the ones we mentioned, 15:24.360 --> 15:25.880 and they can just be a prompt. 15:28.040 --> 15:30.920 Those could be things that you expect happening, 15:30.920 --> 15:34.840 those could be things you talked about with other conferences in your area, 15:34.840 --> 15:35.880 to happen there. 15:35.880 --> 15:39.080 What if, or what comes in form of speaker? 15:39.080 --> 15:42.120 What if, maybe you have a social event. 15:42.120 --> 15:45.800 You serve all call, the sponsor misbehaves during that. 15:45.800 --> 15:47.000 Do you allow them in the next day? 15:48.520 --> 15:49.960 We've seen it happen at conferences. 15:51.320 --> 15:54.280 I've had it happen myself, where at the speaker dinner, 15:55.240 --> 15:58.280 speaking as over at a conference, we go back to hotel. 15:59.000 --> 16:01.720 That part is technically not covered by the code of conduct, 16:02.440 --> 16:05.720 but not organized or behaves very inappropriately. 16:06.360 --> 16:09.000 What do you do? Is that technically part of the conference or not? 16:09.560 --> 16:13.640 I ended up reporting it to the next day, and the person was no longer allowed to come in. 16:15.160 --> 16:17.240 That's the kind of conversations you need to have, 16:17.240 --> 16:21.480 and where the conversation turns uncomfortable, where you disagree, 16:22.200 --> 16:23.880 that's the thing you're looking for, I think. 16:25.240 --> 16:29.080 It's so much better to have this conversation two weeks, a week before the event, 16:29.080 --> 16:32.920 instead of at 4 p.m. an hour before the closing notes, 16:32.920 --> 16:34.840 and now you're in a discussion with five people. 16:36.280 --> 16:39.000 Communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate is only for a reason, 16:39.640 --> 16:44.680 but the last thing I want to mention on this slide is what's normal for me as a Dutch person, 16:45.240 --> 16:49.960 which is transparent, maybe a little direct, is so much of the line for someone else. 16:50.840 --> 16:57.160 Our Amsterdam team is 50% Dutch, but there's a lot of people who would have handled an incident differently than me. 17:01.480 --> 17:05.320 What happens after the incidents you have decided on a course of action, 17:07.000 --> 17:12.120 or you're deciding on a course of action, it can be extremely difficult. 17:13.080 --> 17:19.720 If this is an offense that happened in a private situation, there were just two people involved, 17:20.280 --> 17:22.600 then there is no need for a public apology, right? 17:22.600 --> 17:26.280 If something happens on stage, it might need a public apology. 17:27.400 --> 17:34.760 I think if this is the first time that a person does anything in your community, 17:34.760 --> 17:38.760 they might be, you might be okay with just a warning. 17:38.840 --> 17:43.320 If you know that this person is a repeat offender, you might want to tread differently. 17:44.200 --> 17:50.520 I think what helps is thinking in proportion, two things to think about is what are the chances 17:50.520 --> 17:57.240 of this happening again, and what can you do to make sure to avoid that, but also what helps to make 17:57.240 --> 18:03.320 people feel safe in your community. As a little personal experience, a story, I attended a conference of 18:03.320 --> 18:10.280 500 people. There was a question, how many people identified as a woman, five people raised their hands, 18:11.160 --> 18:20.040 and later I, a sponsor made an uncomfortable comment towards me, and I walked up to one of the 18:20.040 --> 18:25.880 organizers to tell them about it, and they were completely unequipped to do with my complaints. 18:25.880 --> 18:30.600 They had no idea what to do, they said that they had never received a complaint before. 18:30.600 --> 18:35.480 And I was like, here's only five women here, though. There's probably a reason for that, 18:35.480 --> 18:41.240 and that's because we warn each other for this kind of events. If I'm at an event, 18:41.240 --> 18:47.160 and I feel uncomfortable, I've been in an uncomfortable situation, I will tell my friends about this 18:47.160 --> 18:53.400 to avoid this conference at all costs. Just because something isn't reported doesn't mean nothing 18:53.800 --> 19:00.120 happened. So for us, for our team, what we find in Kerala be important to, as we're running out of time, 19:00.920 --> 19:07.480 is to do a little review at the end of the conference, like a retrospective, if you will. 19:07.480 --> 19:13.720 What, and well, where do you get stuck on making a decision, and this is how your code of conduct 19:13.720 --> 19:18.200 becomes sort of more of a well-oiled process than just the document? 19:18.200 --> 19:24.920 Yeah, and this is hard. We've done this for 10 years, and every time new stuff comes up. 19:25.800 --> 19:30.600 We're running almost out of time, so we want to give you a couple of last things to think about. 19:31.240 --> 19:36.520 Yeah, to discuss in the hallway, if you will, because 20 minutes again is not enough to talk about this. 19:37.080 --> 19:42.760 So one thing that's top of mind for DevOps-based organizers right now is what do you do if you 19:42.760 --> 19:48.760 hear from other event organizers or attendees that someone has broken the code of conduct at 19:48.760 --> 19:53.240 another event, or this person is maybe even a repeal fender, and now there is speaker at your event, 19:53.240 --> 19:58.920 where it's indeed at your event. Do you ban this person? Do you talk to your fellow 19:58.920 --> 20:03.560 organizers to make sure that you're more vigilant in checking out that this person is behaving? 20:03.560 --> 20:10.280 And what factors into your decision to maybe ban someone from your event at all? Do you 20:10.440 --> 20:16.680 ask for their side of the story? Yeah, and if you do an event, and you serve alcohol, 20:16.680 --> 20:21.800 that should go out of conduct and needs to stay sober, that's maybe a different answer for each 20:21.800 --> 20:27.560 community, as well. Yeah, for DevOps-based, I'm sure that we decided that yes, but it's maybe an 20:27.560 --> 20:35.080 unpopular opinion. And I think also for this, so for so many things in software and in life, 20:35.240 --> 20:40.440 your answer might be a depends, and we're curious what it depends on, so please talk to us. 20:41.720 --> 20:46.440 Thank you.