WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:08.320 All right, folks, we're just about another minute out. 00:08.320 --> 00:12.800 This next talk is going to move us into governance, who's here's an open source project 00:12.800 --> 00:14.720 and what changes as it grows. 00:14.720 --> 00:20.400 Many projects hit a point where stewardship decisions stop being theoretical, especially 00:20.400 --> 00:22.800 when companies or foundations are involved. 00:22.800 --> 00:26.080 Please welcome Repake and Faith Digger Menti. 00:26.080 --> 00:27.080 All right. 00:27.480 --> 00:28.280 Thank you. 00:31.880 --> 00:35.240 Good to be back in the community bedroom. 00:37.240 --> 00:39.240 So, thanks for coming. 00:39.240 --> 00:40.280 So, my name is Rui Peik. 00:40.280 --> 00:43.080 I'm a community manager for TIDB to open source 00:43.080 --> 00:45.960 distributed SQL database within around for about 10 years. 00:47.240 --> 00:48.760 And yeah, go ahead. 00:48.760 --> 00:49.960 Yeah. 00:49.960 --> 00:50.440 Hi, everyone. 00:50.440 --> 00:51.400 My name is Fatiha, my name is Fatiha. 00:51.400 --> 00:56.040 And I work at Susay as the manager for a create team there. 00:56.760 --> 00:58.760 And maybe I can say, because as we're like, 00:58.760 --> 01:01.880 I'm looking at the Sweden and I being contributing to open source 01:01.880 --> 01:06.200 for more than 10 years, I think, under different communities. 01:07.240 --> 01:10.200 And you must all joke. 01:10.200 --> 01:10.840 So, yeah. 01:10.840 --> 01:11.480 No, that's all right. 01:11.480 --> 01:13.080 So, I did. 01:14.120 --> 01:17.640 But I mean, I started working in open source community management 01:17.640 --> 01:20.360 a little over 10 years ago when I joined the LF. 01:20.360 --> 01:21.800 And I was there for four years. 01:21.800 --> 01:24.600 And ever since then, I've been at various commercial open source 01:24.600 --> 01:26.600 offer companies, including my current job. 01:26.600 --> 01:32.200 So, and then Fatiha, as he mentioned, he, you know, 01:32.200 --> 01:34.360 I first met him when he was an active contributor 01:34.360 --> 01:35.880 to one of the projects at the LF. 01:35.880 --> 01:37.960 So, I think we both have an experience working 01:37.960 --> 01:41.400 at both commercial open source companies and foundation. 01:41.400 --> 01:45.800 So, one is sort of a share our perspective in the last thing 01:45.800 --> 01:46.520 on the slide. 01:46.520 --> 01:50.040 Like, we share an obsessive passion for the same game, 01:50.040 --> 01:52.120 but we call it something different. 01:52.760 --> 01:59.560 But, so, I mean, these logos should be familiar to you. 01:59.560 --> 02:02.360 I mean, when I show examples with logos, 02:02.360 --> 02:03.880 I'm not picking on these people. 02:03.880 --> 02:05.000 It's not shot in for it. 02:05.000 --> 02:08.920 It's just some of the examples just came to me at the top of my mind. 02:08.920 --> 02:13.080 So, a lot of these companies, I mean, starting in like 2017, 02:13.080 --> 02:15.560 a lot of these companies, they started with a 02:15.560 --> 02:17.480 recognized open source licenses. 02:17.480 --> 02:21.400 And then, for one reason or another, decided to change 02:21.400 --> 02:26.360 their licenses to a variant of business source licenses. 02:26.360 --> 02:30.280 And what's also been interesting with some of these projects 02:30.280 --> 02:33.160 is that community fork were formed. 02:33.160 --> 02:36.120 And like open source, faculty, and open tofu, 02:36.120 --> 02:39.800 I think all of these are under the Linux Foundation. 02:39.800 --> 02:46.040 So, when people got upset about companies changing the licenses 02:46.040 --> 02:48.680 on community, they said, you know what? 02:48.680 --> 02:51.800 We're just going to create our own fork 02:51.800 --> 02:55.640 and put it under the auspices of foundations. 02:55.640 --> 03:00.440 And a narrative started developing, especially on line 03:00.440 --> 03:03.560 about, you know, can we even trust commercial open source 03:03.560 --> 03:04.760 companies anymore? 03:04.760 --> 03:08.200 Because a lot of folks are doing a bait in switch. 03:08.200 --> 03:11.000 And we might as well just bring everything under the foundation. 03:12.440 --> 03:15.800 And then, I think the following interaction 03:15.800 --> 03:21.880 that I got involved in on hacker news is somewhat typical. 03:21.880 --> 03:25.160 So, one of our colleagues posted, it was just a link 03:25.160 --> 03:29.320 to our GitHub repo saying, hey, check out this open source database, 03:29.320 --> 03:31.000 written and go. 03:31.000 --> 03:34.920 And another colleague of mine sort of jumped in and offered a couple 03:34.920 --> 03:39.320 more details about our project and also mentioned 03:39.320 --> 03:44.360 some of the projects that we donated to the CNCF. 03:44.360 --> 03:47.000 And not surprisingly, somebody jumped in and said, hey, 03:47.000 --> 03:48.520 this is a VC back company. 03:48.520 --> 03:49.560 They have a CLA. 03:49.560 --> 03:51.320 So, we need to create a fork. 03:52.920 --> 03:55.800 So, you know, that's fine, not unexpected. 03:55.800 --> 04:01.080 And then, somewhere down the road, somebody else jumped in and said, hey, 04:01.080 --> 04:03.400 we just need to move everything under our foundation 04:03.400 --> 04:05.160 and have multiple companies contribute. 04:06.200 --> 04:10.680 And this is when I jumped in, I said, look, I work for the company 04:10.680 --> 04:13.640 that's supporting TIDB, but I also worked at the foundation. 04:13.640 --> 04:15.240 And it's not that simple. 04:15.240 --> 04:19.480 You need to have a more balanced look as to which models are appropriate. 04:19.480 --> 04:22.760 So, that's obviously the theme of our talk. 04:24.040 --> 04:29.160 And just a quick recap on how foundations typically work. 04:29.160 --> 04:33.640 And some of these may be basic and I apologize if I'm boring people. 04:33.640 --> 04:37.000 So, obviously, when the projects get formed, 04:37.000 --> 04:40.600 like the funding comes from dozens of companies, which is nice. 04:40.600 --> 04:43.320 You bring it a diverse perspective, 04:43.320 --> 04:45.480 and diverse participants into a project. 04:46.600 --> 04:50.440 And obviously, they're providing funding through their membership fees. 04:51.400 --> 04:54.040 But what's also interesting is that not just scholars, 04:54.040 --> 04:59.240 but a lot of the contributions come from these companies that are members. 04:59.800 --> 05:02.840 And it's not always 100%. 05:02.840 --> 05:07.880 But the level of their contributions, technical contributions, 05:07.880 --> 05:10.440 there's a strong correlation with their membership level. 05:10.440 --> 05:14.040 The higher, like, a platinum members, they typically contribute 05:14.040 --> 05:17.400 not just most scholars, but also most developer resources. 05:17.400 --> 05:21.240 And these developers, I mean, they're already on salary, right? 05:21.240 --> 05:23.720 I mean, a couple of people here are smiling. 05:23.720 --> 05:26.200 But they're already on salary, they're not. 05:26.200 --> 05:29.480 So, these, a lot of these funding aren't going to pay for developers. 05:29.480 --> 05:31.880 I mean, sometimes that happens on an individual basis, 05:31.880 --> 05:35.480 but a lot of this funding is going towards like marketing activities, 05:35.480 --> 05:37.320 like projects on it, like events. 05:38.280 --> 05:42.040 And also paying for foundation staff, 05:42.040 --> 05:45.640 like executive directors or like operation persons like me, 05:45.640 --> 05:47.400 who was working with technical community, 05:47.400 --> 05:51.800 I'm basically like a line item in the project's budget. 05:53.480 --> 05:55.160 And the other thing I want to add here, 05:55.160 --> 05:58.120 obviously, the governance and leadership come from the community, 05:58.120 --> 06:01.400 or as it should, as it should. 06:02.680 --> 06:05.960 And a lot of the decisions unlike corporations 06:06.040 --> 06:07.880 are more consensus driven, right? 06:07.880 --> 06:12.200 Which is nice, but also, there's a room for things 06:12.200 --> 06:15.560 we're taking loosely longer than it typically does at corporations. 06:18.040 --> 06:21.560 So, I mean, I can't take credit for this. 06:21.560 --> 06:24.680 I think, fought to year them when who put together the slide. 06:24.680 --> 06:28.520 I like the tagline at the bottom, it says the foundation 06:28.520 --> 06:30.440 isn't going to solve all the problems. 06:30.440 --> 06:32.040 You need share commitments from everybody. 06:32.520 --> 06:36.920 Because, you know, one defoundation typically start. 06:39.320 --> 06:42.200 If you're joined as like a platinum member, 06:42.200 --> 06:44.520 like because you want the foundation to be around 06:45.080 --> 06:46.520 for at least the first couple of years. 06:46.520 --> 06:49.400 So, you make like a two-three year commitment to be a platinum member. 06:49.400 --> 06:52.200 So, you're not just cutting the check for the first year, 06:52.200 --> 06:54.920 but you're cutting the check for multiple years, 06:54.920 --> 06:58.040 so that your foundation has some stability in the beginning. 06:58.680 --> 07:01.640 But if you think about it, like a two-year is, 07:01.720 --> 07:03.800 it's not necessarily a long time. 07:03.800 --> 07:07.400 It's very similar to how, like a commercial self-recompanies, 07:07.400 --> 07:09.400 you do around the funding with the VCs. 07:10.120 --> 07:14.840 You're raising money so that you have a running way for a year to at least, right? 07:14.840 --> 07:19.800 So, you, and then you do the next round of funding to keep the light on. 07:21.080 --> 07:24.280 But the challenge is what happens after the first couple of years. 07:25.400 --> 07:28.360 A lot of projects under the LF are doing well, 07:28.360 --> 07:29.800 but there are projects that we've seen, 07:29.800 --> 07:31.560 unfortunately, after a couple of years. 07:31.560 --> 07:33.880 Like, you lose a couple of your platinum membership, 07:33.880 --> 07:36.600 and there's a lot of risk, not just financially, 07:36.600 --> 07:39.160 but you're also losing your developer resources 07:39.160 --> 07:41.160 that are doing bulk of the work. 07:42.520 --> 07:47.400 And this happens, because if you imagine like two-year period, 07:47.960 --> 07:51.400 a large company usually they'll typically go through some re-org. 07:51.400 --> 07:56.680 It's inevitable, and then like a VP, or whoever the executive sponsor was, 07:56.760 --> 07:59.240 who was a big champion of the project, 07:59.240 --> 08:01.240 that person may not be there anymore. 08:01.240 --> 08:06.840 And then, you know, the dollars get taken away by new executives, 08:06.840 --> 08:11.960 or in worst case, the developer resources get taken away as well. 08:11.960 --> 08:15.400 So, it's important, like if it's a foundation staff, 08:15.400 --> 08:19.320 not just to maintain the level of like a platinum member's, 08:19.320 --> 08:23.000 but you also want to make sure that there's a contributed diversity. 08:23.000 --> 08:26.520 Because if things happen, if you lose like a two-platinent member's, 08:27.320 --> 08:32.040 you still have enough resources, both from the financial and technical side, 08:32.040 --> 08:33.640 to keep the lights on. 08:34.760 --> 08:37.000 I think next slide is your Fati. 08:38.040 --> 08:39.240 Oh, sorry. 08:39.240 --> 08:51.880 So, we found a couple of examples that show a cases where things could still go wrong, 08:51.880 --> 08:52.840 unfortunately. 08:52.840 --> 08:57.880 And so, first one is what matrix, I think it was about a year ago, 08:57.880 --> 09:02.680 shortly after last year's falls, and there's a block post that came out from matrix 09:02.680 --> 09:07.160 saying that we're at a crossroads, like they're having some severe financial difficulties. 09:07.160 --> 09:09.720 And fortunately, I think things have started turning around. 09:10.520 --> 09:13.080 There's another block post that I found that came out, 09:13.080 --> 09:14.760 like shortly before Christmas, saying, 09:15.640 --> 09:17.880 although they're still having financial difficulties, 09:17.880 --> 09:20.040 but they're starting to make progress. 09:20.120 --> 09:22.520 And this is a project that's been around for like 10 years. 09:23.400 --> 09:27.880 And they're still struggling, and they're over relying on one of the members for a lot of the financial 09:27.880 --> 09:28.520 backing. 09:28.520 --> 09:32.360 So, I'm glad the things are going well, but it's not always rosy. 09:33.560 --> 09:38.200 And the second one, when Fati sent this to me over a text, I thought it was a joke. 09:39.080 --> 09:43.160 I don't know if you heard of like a scenario, and that's net.io. 09:44.120 --> 09:46.840 So, when I read this, like a block post from CNC, 09:46.840 --> 09:49.000 yeah, if I thought it was like a Kafka novel. 09:49.000 --> 09:51.880 Like, what scenario did was not only say, 09:53.240 --> 09:56.680 you know, we regret kicking the donating project to DLF, 09:56.680 --> 09:58.040 and we want to walk away. 09:58.040 --> 10:01.240 They said, we want our control of the GitHub repo. 10:01.880 --> 10:03.480 They want the domain name back. 10:03.480 --> 10:07.400 They want the trademark back, and it was surreal. 10:07.400 --> 10:12.520 And then not unexpectedly, a couple of years later, they settled things. 10:12.520 --> 10:15.080 So, things are, I guess, now back, back to normal. 10:15.080 --> 10:19.160 But, yeah, you can't, let's just like bad actors behaving poorly, 10:19.160 --> 10:21.560 even under foundations, that's sort of the point. 10:21.560 --> 10:23.800 Although it's a very extreme example, I think. 10:25.800 --> 10:29.480 Now, before I move to company back foundations, 10:29.480 --> 10:34.120 I want to highlight something about foundations and the member companies. 10:34.120 --> 10:37.480 Like, obviously, member companies provide the funding, 10:37.480 --> 10:43.880 the resources, whether cloud resources or human resources in the form of voters. 10:43.960 --> 10:47.400 But I just want to note that when I was at the LF, 10:47.400 --> 10:53.640 I struggled a lot with communities not doing good job on the resources. 10:53.640 --> 10:55.640 They are given by the foundations as well. 10:55.640 --> 11:00.120 So, the community, or as in the usual countries, 11:00.120 --> 11:03.560 we can do a lot of things to have the foundation says, 11:03.560 --> 11:03.960 right? 11:03.960 --> 11:07.000 For example, when I was there, half of the foundations 11:07.000 --> 11:10.280 remain where it was spent on cloud resources. 11:10.440 --> 11:14.200 And then we did RMS is half of that expense 11:14.200 --> 11:18.600 was for things that haven't been needed or used anymore. 11:18.600 --> 11:21.400 So, the AS committee members, we can have foundations 11:21.400 --> 11:25.800 to support our projects by adding and doing some, 11:25.800 --> 11:29.640 you know, okay, not reducing our infrastructure costs and so on. 11:29.640 --> 11:32.760 So, those things can be used for the corporate events, 11:32.760 --> 11:34.440 swags and other things. 11:34.440 --> 11:38.200 So, it's again, it's not just foundations, it's not just companies 11:38.280 --> 11:40.120 who are supporting those foundations, 11:40.120 --> 11:43.320 but us as community members have a big role to play 11:43.320 --> 11:46.760 to sustain the foundations where our projects are hosted. 11:46.760 --> 11:50.360 So, that is something I personally had to deal with 11:50.360 --> 11:53.800 and cause the end of problems for the communities in the end 11:53.800 --> 12:03.000 because of high costs caused by the infrastructure costs. 12:03.000 --> 12:05.960 So, when it comes to commercial company-based projects, 12:05.960 --> 12:11.160 so as opposed to foundation backed projects or host projects, 12:11.160 --> 12:16.040 the company-based projects usually get their major chunk of funding 12:16.040 --> 12:18.760 from the companies who backed those projects. 12:18.760 --> 12:22.520 And in some cases, it could be 100% coming from a single company 12:22.520 --> 12:26.520 who is pushing the project forward but in open source 12:26.520 --> 12:31.000 for me also commercial form based on open source version. 12:31.000 --> 12:33.080 But in some cases, there may be other companies 12:33.080 --> 12:36.360 contributing different types of resource-like cloud resource cloud 12:36.360 --> 12:37.640 credits and so on. 12:37.640 --> 12:41.960 But company-based projects are mostly supported by 12:41.960 --> 12:44.760 the company who actually is behind that project. 12:44.760 --> 12:48.760 And similar to funding the developer resources, 12:48.760 --> 12:50.520 I was also coming from company. 12:50.520 --> 12:55.000 So, if the company is going through a troubling period, 12:55.000 --> 12:57.560 the developer resource could also go down. 12:57.560 --> 13:00.680 And again, it is highly dependent on companies 13:00.680 --> 13:05.000 performance as well as the company, the project success. 13:05.000 --> 13:09.400 And obviously, if a company is putting out of financial support 13:09.400 --> 13:13.160 and letting its developers contribute to projects, 13:13.160 --> 13:17.640 they also have a bit higher chance of deciding the product-priority 13:17.640 --> 13:20.680 or project road maps and this is inevitable. 13:20.680 --> 13:26.520 Like, if more companies join and support the projects financially 13:27.400 --> 13:30.600 or by providing dual resources, then they may 13:30.600 --> 13:33.080 have a say in the project road map and so on. 13:33.080 --> 13:36.040 But generally, the companies who back the projects 13:36.040 --> 13:39.320 have a bigger say in the project road map. 13:39.320 --> 13:43.880 Even though such projects, which I will talk about, for example, 13:43.880 --> 13:49.080 soon, they get contributions from others who are not employed 13:49.080 --> 13:51.560 by the companies who back the projects, 13:51.560 --> 13:55.720 they may not have a final say in the project's future or road map. 13:55.720 --> 13:57.880 They can obviously go and share their feedback, 13:57.880 --> 14:02.120 but in the end, because the company is putting out of, you know, 14:02.120 --> 14:04.440 backing to projects. 14:04.440 --> 14:07.560 In some cases, the community's feedback may not be taken 14:07.560 --> 14:10.280 into consideration by the companies. 14:10.920 --> 14:13.960 And yeah, some of the successful companies let open source projects 14:13.960 --> 14:15.800 like, I use Ansible on a daily basis. 14:15.800 --> 14:17.320 I use GitLab on a daily basis. 14:17.320 --> 14:20.360 And I use Docker in the past on a daily basis. 14:20.360 --> 14:22.360 And these are all all some projects. 14:22.360 --> 14:26.360 But they are mainly drawn by individual companies. 14:26.360 --> 14:28.680 And again, as I said, some of these projects get 14:28.680 --> 14:31.560 contributions or support from other companies. 14:31.560 --> 14:34.840 But when you look at these projects, you can 14:34.840 --> 14:37.080 direct think who is behind this project. 14:38.120 --> 14:43.240 And this is in a way good, because the strong company support, 14:43.240 --> 14:45.880 stewardship can drive long-term success for projects. 14:45.880 --> 14:48.760 Obviously, this is heavily depends on company success as well. 14:48.760 --> 14:53.160 Like, if company is making a return of the investment 14:53.160 --> 14:54.760 from these projects, they will definitely 14:54.760 --> 14:56.600 continue supporting the projects. 14:56.600 --> 14:59.160 But if the company doesn't get what they 14:59.160 --> 15:04.680 invest in these projects in return, they may make different decisions 15:04.680 --> 15:07.560 based on their business priorities and so on. 15:07.560 --> 15:16.680 And again, the decisions and progress can be faster in such projects, 15:16.680 --> 15:20.920 because, again, some of the project roadmap is coming 15:20.920 --> 15:23.640 from company product management. 15:23.640 --> 15:28.040 And that could actually kind of steal the community 15:28.040 --> 15:31.960 towards certain decisions to be taken faster, certain things 15:31.960 --> 15:34.280 prioritized more than others. 15:34.280 --> 15:37.880 Well, again, indent is our company back. 15:37.880 --> 15:43.320 And even though we as community members want to go and contribute, 15:43.320 --> 15:48.760 the main steering comes from the company itself. 15:48.760 --> 15:52.520 And also, as I mentioned, like the funding is 15:52.520 --> 15:54.120 played key for open source projects, 15:54.120 --> 15:58.280 regardless of if this was by foundations or companies 15:58.280 --> 16:03.160 and having a strong company behind projects had project to sustain 16:03.160 --> 16:05.800 itself financially for longer term. 16:05.800 --> 16:09.560 And similarly, the company employees become 16:09.560 --> 16:12.280 contribute to the project, and they also could have 16:12.280 --> 16:15.160 sustainability of the project from technical perspective 16:15.160 --> 16:18.920 and ensure the project continues to provide support for 16:18.920 --> 16:22.520 its open source users or commercial users. 16:22.520 --> 16:26.440 And the last point is about the license changes, 16:26.440 --> 16:29.400 like ways they mentioned that I've been quite a few license 16:29.400 --> 16:31.000 change recently. 16:31.000 --> 16:34.680 And it happens similarly with the company back projects. 16:34.680 --> 16:37.880 And this QR code takes you to a GitHub repo, 16:37.880 --> 16:40.360 writing down faster, created this table, 16:40.360 --> 16:42.360 who is here in the run now. 16:42.360 --> 16:45.240 So we look at her analysis and all the past decade 16:45.240 --> 16:47.640 that have been only 20 license changes. 16:47.640 --> 16:50.680 So again, license changes are not good, but it's not like 16:50.680 --> 16:53.560 hundreds, it's limited in number. 16:53.560 --> 16:56.680 And some of you know which projects change licenses. 16:56.680 --> 17:00.120 And you can check the table to see what those projects are 17:00.120 --> 17:06.280 and thanks don't for creating the table and making the analysis. 17:06.280 --> 17:08.360 When it comes to how can me influence company 17:08.360 --> 17:09.960 let open source projects? 17:09.960 --> 17:14.840 And again, on a higher level, it's not so different from 17:14.840 --> 17:18.600 from foundation, host or back or support projects. 17:18.600 --> 17:22.280 We as committee members must continue our engagement 17:22.280 --> 17:26.200 actively in the projects that are backed by companies. 17:26.200 --> 17:29.720 And in some cases, people might think like, 17:29.720 --> 17:32.520 oh, I can go and make code contribution to this project, 17:32.520 --> 17:35.480 so they can hear my voice and help me get whatever 17:35.480 --> 17:38.360 bug fix or feature prioritized. 17:38.360 --> 17:43.240 But contributions can vary in form. 17:43.240 --> 17:44.840 It doesn't have to be code contributions. 17:44.840 --> 17:46.680 It can be the computation contributions. 17:46.680 --> 17:50.760 It can be, as I mentioned, like maintaining cloud infrastructure 17:50.760 --> 17:55.240 or helping with the event organization or marketing and so on. 17:55.240 --> 18:00.680 And this way, we can help our voices hurt 18:00.680 --> 18:04.920 even better by the project itself and the company 18:04.920 --> 18:07.640 that backs that project because we are contributing our time 18:07.640 --> 18:11.480 without any expectation from the company that backs the project. 18:11.480 --> 18:15.160 And that might help elevate our, you know, profile with the project 18:15.160 --> 18:17.560 and also within the company itself. 18:17.560 --> 18:22.520 And this is also paved way for us to direct reach out to company 18:22.520 --> 18:26.280 employees themselves because the people we are working 18:26.280 --> 18:28.200 in the community there in place of the company. 18:28.200 --> 18:30.600 And they are our fellow community members. 18:30.600 --> 18:33.560 So we can just talk them about our needs and requirements 18:33.560 --> 18:38.120 and see where in the line those things are getting done 18:38.120 --> 18:40.920 or will there be any chance of those things to be done. 18:40.920 --> 18:45.960 So again, the keyword here is simple and this is constructive feedback 18:45.960 --> 18:48.760 that is pretty key because there is a company 18:48.760 --> 18:51.720 with financial interests behind that project. 18:51.720 --> 18:54.840 And it is doing its best to support the project. 18:55.160 --> 18:57.880 At the same time, it needs to, you know, 18:57.880 --> 19:01.640 care about its own well-being as a company. 19:01.640 --> 19:05.000 So we have to make sure we should go and pass our feedback 19:05.000 --> 19:08.120 and a constructive manner to the companies. 19:08.120 --> 19:10.520 And finally, whatever we do, 19:10.520 --> 19:14.360 as part of our committee engagements for such projects like 19:14.360 --> 19:20.040 once I mentioned, our contributions would help pay users 19:20.040 --> 19:23.160 and pay users of contributions would help us intern. 19:23.160 --> 19:26.440 This is like shared ownership in a way, 19:26.440 --> 19:30.920 regardless of if the project is backed by a foundation or a company. 19:30.920 --> 19:33.720 So in that, there are a lot of similarities 19:33.720 --> 19:37.000 between the projects hosted by the foundations 19:37.000 --> 19:40.120 and projects backed by the companies. 19:40.120 --> 19:43.320 What matters here is, as committee members, 19:43.320 --> 19:46.680 to go and do our best to help the project, 19:46.680 --> 19:48.200 regardless of who the project is. 19:48.200 --> 19:51.800 Because in that, we are there to make what we want 19:51.800 --> 19:56.680 to happen for quickly make the project better have others, 19:56.680 --> 20:02.200 which we don't know who to make sure the projects stay healthy 20:02.200 --> 20:04.520 and have its users. 20:04.520 --> 20:06.520 Cool. 20:06.520 --> 20:09.320 Yeah, so good, do a quick wrap up. 20:09.320 --> 20:11.400 We've got a one-minute warning. 20:11.400 --> 20:15.080 So you probably guess when you saw the title or the abstract, 20:15.080 --> 20:17.400 like, should it be foundation or the company? 20:17.400 --> 20:18.840 There's no simple answer. 20:18.840 --> 20:21.720 I mean, the answer is it depends. 20:21.720 --> 20:24.120 It depends on the nature of the project. 20:24.120 --> 20:26.120 It depends on who's involved. 20:26.120 --> 20:29.640 So it's overly simplistic to say, because you're VC backed 20:29.640 --> 20:32.600 or you're a foundation backed, you're project 20:32.600 --> 20:33.960 going to be better over the other. 20:33.960 --> 20:34.920 I think it depends. 20:34.920 --> 20:39.640 And the final point I want to drive is not the business model 20:39.640 --> 20:43.560 or the funding model that determines how healthy the project is. 20:43.560 --> 20:45.720 It's all the community members. 20:45.720 --> 20:49.640 You need to hold the foundation people, 20:49.640 --> 20:56.600 the executives at companies accountable so that the project 20:56.600 --> 20:58.440 is open and it prosperous. 20:58.440 --> 21:00.840 It's not just down to business model. 21:00.840 --> 21:07.160 And it's easy to throw rocks at people, 21:07.160 --> 21:11.160 but we all have shared responsibilities to make sure 21:11.160 --> 21:13.480 that the project stays healthy. 21:13.480 --> 21:17.240 And then it's choose a state to the open source philosophy. 21:17.240 --> 21:18.120 So I think that's it. 21:18.120 --> 21:20.920 We don't have time for Q&A, but we'll 21:20.920 --> 21:24.040 we can duck outside if you people want to grab us 21:24.040 --> 21:26.360 or you don't find us on LinkedIn. 21:26.360 --> 21:27.480 Thank you. 21:27.480 --> 21:37.480 Thank you.