WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:12.680 Hi, everyone. Welcome to the ultimate session of the day. This session is going to be unique 00:12.680 --> 00:18.120 for several reasons. The first is that the format is different, so we're going to have 00:18.120 --> 00:23.760 two lightning talks. First of all, Max is going to start with a 10 minute lightning talk, 00:23.760 --> 00:29.120 and then to be a 5-ion here, we're going to follow that with a 10 minute lightning talk. 00:29.120 --> 00:34.880 Then we're going to have a 10 minute Q&A. If you think of questions during either or 00:34.880 --> 00:41.400 both of the lightning talks, please write them down and share them during the Q&A. Without further 00:41.400 --> 00:46.400 do, I'll pass over to Max. 00:46.400 --> 00:59.880 Yeah, just a soundtrack. Okay, sounds good. Yeah, my name is Max. I'm a CEO and co-founder of Open Energy 00:59.880 --> 01:07.400 Transition. My background is that I did a peach-teen energy system planning, and you 01:07.400 --> 01:15.600 like research. The research world, Open Source is the standard already. Everybody uses that. 01:15.600 --> 01:21.360 But yeah, when I looked just in the industry, on the industry side, Open Source was not 01:21.360 --> 01:27.920 a standard at all. In the energy planning world, so I'm like, I had the choice basically 01:27.920 --> 01:34.280 to either create something or be unemployed, because I wanted really Open Source, an Open 01:34.280 --> 01:40.080 Source job. Now, he still don't work on the code anymore. Like, I just bring funding, 01:40.080 --> 01:48.080 somehow in this space. Yeah, like I just tell you a little bit from our experiences on 01:48.080 --> 01:55.840 how we grew within two and a half years to now 50 people. We're helping, like the philanthropic 01:55.840 --> 02:01.680 world to better understand by free and open source of this really important. And we have 02:01.760 --> 02:09.960 never rising like 10 to 100s of million, actually, funding going into Open Source through 02:09.960 --> 02:18.480 our activities, and not just for our company, but for the whole ecosystem. And yeah, 02:18.480 --> 02:25.800 now I'm really happy to talk a little bit about some thoughts that I drafted two weeks 02:25.880 --> 02:39.360 ago about this topic. Okay, grid planning. Like, if you don't know it yet, it's actually 02:39.360 --> 02:45.880 grid planning, like we do that to figure out what's the optimal grid investments, which 02:45.880 --> 02:52.480 we should do, or how should we operate our grid infrastructure or energy system. It's 02:52.560 --> 02:58.360 actually a 1 billion per year software industry behind that. At the moment, you're like, 02:58.360 --> 03:04.200 mostly proprietary, but yeah, there's already, like I was just estimating the first number. 03:04.200 --> 03:11.520 It's growing. Like, we're getting there. And yeah, like the big, large effect is really 03:11.520 --> 03:16.480 with the software, we actually decide, you know, like thousands of billion investments 03:16.560 --> 03:22.800 a year into real hardware infrastructure. And so on. So it's really important to actually 03:22.800 --> 03:30.080 improve our planning tools to have maybe some impacts, like savings on the 1000,000 billion 03:30.080 --> 03:36.880 factor. And yeah, like we hope we're like with Open Source software, we can be actually much better 03:37.680 --> 03:44.240 more innovative and collaborative to actually have impact on the 1000s billions here. 03:44.240 --> 03:54.960 Yeah. Like, I just, like, status quo is also actually quite interesting. Like, most things 03:54.960 --> 04:00.640 are proprietary, as I mentioned, but there's also the new digital, so a Renete angle, 04:00.640 --> 04:08.400 getting more and more important. We don't want to depend on, let's say, Russian software 04:08.480 --> 04:14.320 to operate our grip, which, that's currently not the case. But partially, we depend on, 04:14.320 --> 04:23.440 like, American-owned solutions. And here, I think, the dependency on such a software angles is 04:24.160 --> 04:30.560 a little bit shaky since the recent months or years at least. Yeah, and digital sovereignty 04:30.560 --> 04:40.960 really helps to be independent on the open source of its useful, but in the energy planning sector, 04:40.960 --> 04:47.280 but it can make sure, like, a still room to improve and work on it. And we really need to make 04:47.280 --> 04:54.240 it mainstream to get adoption on another level. Both on actually the demand side, so we need 04:54.240 --> 05:00.400 more users, but we also need more supply companies, like service companies, helping you to 05:00.400 --> 05:07.680 adopt this of helping understanding what it is and so on. And yeah, for that, we need some kind of 05:07.680 --> 05:18.080 revolution or evolution within the first sector for energy or grid planning. Here, you see a graph 05:19.040 --> 05:24.400 talking about adoption on the Y-axis and on the X-axis, and you're like, the different type of users. 05:25.360 --> 05:32.080 I would say currently we have this red dots here, and where we have mostly early adopters 05:32.640 --> 05:41.360 working with us and others in the ecosystem to use fast software in action. Some examples, 05:41.920 --> 05:48.880 like, we personally work with the European energy regulator, with various grid operators across 05:48.960 --> 05:55.040 Europe and in other parts of the world. And then also many industry users are also 05:55.040 --> 06:02.640 depending on free and open source software, but we are not yet mainstream. We have a couple of 06:02.640 --> 06:10.560 magnitude, more potential users out there, and this is where we need to get. And one theory is, 06:10.560 --> 06:16.080 okay, once we have this large dependency on fast software, then we can also have this large money 06:16.560 --> 06:23.120 to finance developers to make things self-sufficient, like the Linux space. 06:26.560 --> 06:37.360 Good, so as I mentioned, we need money in general, money to fund people mostly, and here the 06:37.360 --> 06:43.680 funding source, I split it a little bit here, we have generally industry funding, 06:43.680 --> 06:50.240 it comes to adoption often, we have public funding and philanthropic support, and then also the 06:50.240 --> 06:57.440 research adoption and funding that comes from there. So the question is, okay, how can we get 06:57.440 --> 07:04.240 more private in public in philanthropic funding to catalyze this revolution? That's the question that 07:04.240 --> 07:12.960 we are really passing all the time. Like that's an answer that we try to figure out every day, 07:12.960 --> 07:21.360 and like I hope to get some inspiration on what are our thoughts and thoughts about that, and maybe 07:21.360 --> 07:31.920 you have to also have some ideas on how we can improve that. So point one is that from our experience, 07:32.080 --> 07:38.400 I think it was really important to spot the opportunity and know how to get first of adopted, 07:40.160 --> 07:46.080 spotting the opportunity, we like I said, okay, there was already a proprietary, like proprietary 07:46.080 --> 07:53.920 surface owning our old school grid planning industry, and people paying shit ton of money for that. 07:53.920 --> 08:04.400 So me like ding ding ding, like it's a big opportunity to get frost in there. And yeah, but beyond that, 08:04.400 --> 08:11.840 beyond that, me like more, let's say money friendly aspects that frost can provide there, actually 08:11.840 --> 08:18.480 lot of other things that benefit the industry, like accessibility, the collaboration nature that 08:18.560 --> 08:23.840 is much easier with free and open source of and then also the innovation aspect. And like with 08:23.840 --> 08:31.760 the changing energy infrastructure, we really need much more and faster innovation. So that was important 08:31.760 --> 08:39.680 to realize, and then yeah, how can we get frost more adopted? What we currently facing is 08:39.680 --> 08:46.720 like industry, which doesn't like surface so much, and like they're generally very risk hours, 08:46.800 --> 08:52.720 which is good, you're like we need electricity 24-7 all the time, so of course there are 08:52.720 --> 09:00.480 risk hours, but most of those grid planners they never heard of open source of like some of them, 09:00.480 --> 09:07.920 like we enter rooms and they they don't know what's first of them, though they are paying 09:07.920 --> 09:16.480 like a billion for proprietary software. So just testing the market awareness and creating 09:17.040 --> 09:22.160 increasing confidence and so on, it's very, very important for our old school industry, 09:23.680 --> 09:30.560 and yeah, like the last points, a little bit unclear, but like we also need to focus on growing 09:30.560 --> 09:38.160 the frost ecosystems, so I'm not talking about a single project that we need to blow up with money, 09:39.280 --> 09:44.960 but we need really to fund the ecosystem race awareness around the ecosystem, and there's 09:47.040 --> 09:57.200 a few initiatives that really help here. What also, like what we realized is that there's a lot 09:57.200 --> 10:07.920 of noise within the funding world, and noise, like we have a lot of projects, there's so many 10:07.920 --> 10:13.600 open source projects around, but we need to actually figure out where should we prioritize, 10:14.320 --> 10:21.120 and what's key to measure ecosystem growth, high impact users, and benchmark the technical 10:21.120 --> 10:26.560 capability. This is what we did just recently with a benchmark platform that we developed, 10:27.520 --> 10:35.360 where we compared 200 different open source grid planning tools, and that really helped us 10:35.440 --> 10:44.240 to prioritize how should we invest in this ecosystem. And last but not least, 10:45.520 --> 10:53.520 yeah, almost okay, I have another slide after this. We need to actually work really, really hard 10:53.520 --> 10:59.920 on the success signals, and that also means you're training competitors, helping adoption for 10:59.920 --> 11:08.560 high impacts cases, like we need more earlier adopters, and until of the problem, and yeah, 11:08.560 --> 11:14.080 if you have any ideas around that, please reach out, and I'm done. Thank you. 11:14.080 --> 11:36.640 So, do you hear me? Perfect. When we continue with Patu, Fabian and myself, to bias, 11:37.200 --> 11:43.040 we are from SAP and want to share a bit about the perspective from how can open source funding 11:43.040 --> 11:49.520 work for an established software company, what are some of the challenges, and maybe inspire 11:49.520 --> 11:57.440 as well, other companies to do something similar. So, just to set the stage, who is SAP? 11:58.000 --> 12:04.800 It's probably some of you have heard about us. It's one of the largest provider of enterprise software, 12:04.800 --> 12:12.640 one of the largest software companies in Europe, and already 50 years old, and with quite a bunch 12:12.640 --> 12:20.080 of developers, so we have around 40,000 developers worldwide, and also a lot of different solutions 12:20.080 --> 12:25.120 and products we commercially sell. And what's in common for a lot of these solutions is where 12:25.120 --> 12:31.680 use a lot of different open source components, under the hood, be it for development, be it for 12:31.680 --> 12:38.480 actually running these, be it for infrastructure management. And these things are quite important, 12:38.480 --> 12:45.760 and also very relevant for us, where these are well maintained and in a great state. 12:46.560 --> 12:53.600 But, how do you can, how can you engage as a software company with open source projects? 12:53.600 --> 12:59.520 Probably quite obvious, the easiest way is, hey, you provide development contributions, 12:59.520 --> 13:05.280 you have development, developers which can provide them. And one thing we heard in earlier talks, 13:05.360 --> 13:12.800 as well, is open source projects are quite diverse, they are either driven from individual developers 13:12.800 --> 13:20.000 in their spare time or just a society project, they are well established projects and foundations, 13:20.000 --> 13:26.560 they are open source projects driven by commercial entities, and all of these have slightly different 13:26.560 --> 13:34.160 governance structures, slightly different engagement models. And development contributions are working 13:34.240 --> 13:40.720 quite seamless for all of these, so that's nice. But when we look at how can we financially 13:40.720 --> 13:46.880 support this project, it gets a bit more tricky. For foundation projects, for example, 13:46.880 --> 13:52.880 memberships is a common way to engage with them, you can become a member of the Linux foundation 13:52.880 --> 13:58.960 or of a Clips Foundation, and with your membership fees as well as support will work of the foundation. 13:59.920 --> 14:05.440 For company projects, a very common approach we have seen is that they offer either support or 14:05.440 --> 14:11.600 some even like special enterprise additions of their source project, and they have a nice legal 14:11.600 --> 14:18.400 department and purchasing department with whom you can interact and to contracts and then do stuff. 14:19.920 --> 14:26.080 The big question we had is that this cover, some of our other use cases and are also quite 14:26.080 --> 14:32.480 established already, but last year, or to be precise, even before that, but last year we started 14:32.480 --> 14:38.320 to focus on what about the last category. Independent projects which are quite small, 14:38.320 --> 14:43.920 there may be one developer or two developers are doing that in their spare time. We can help them 14:43.920 --> 14:49.840 or we can engage with development contributions and that's nice, but sometimes what really helps 14:49.840 --> 14:56.480 our project is that we just say, hey, maintainer, you're doing a great job and we appreciate 14:56.480 --> 15:02.400 your expert knowledge and it's probably not worth that we scale up somebody internally to get the 15:02.400 --> 15:08.800 same level, but it's rather easier to say, we give you some money to keep on doing what you are doing 15:08.800 --> 15:16.960 best. But the big question was when internally, hey, how can we, as a company, give money to such 15:16.960 --> 15:25.040 independent, maintainers and projects? And that's when what we sought out to try to figure out. 15:27.680 --> 15:34.000 How do you give money to individuals as a company? And that sounds rather easy, but it actually 15:34.000 --> 15:41.840 starts or starts getting quite complicated because a normal scenario would be, okay, we have a 15:41.840 --> 15:48.000 contracting department and say, hey, here's our standard supplier contract, it's just a couple 15:48.000 --> 15:54.160 hundred pages, give it to your legal department, they can review it and then be done it, that 15:54.160 --> 16:00.080 that probably doesn't work for a single in the past, maintainer. So what we ended up doing is we 16:00.080 --> 16:06.880 found an intermediary, we looked both at GitHub sponsors as a platform or open collective, 16:06.880 --> 16:13.360 which can handle all various legal annoyances for the projects itself, but as well for us 16:14.640 --> 16:20.400 to ensure that we have a single counterparty in that sense. We ended up using GitHub sponsors, 16:20.400 --> 16:26.960 because the advantage is that GitHub sponsors can as well root money to open collectives. So you 16:26.960 --> 16:35.360 kind of get both, but only have one platform and it's another thing we then just had to ensure 16:35.360 --> 16:40.960 is that, hey, we don't give money to people who are employed by SAP because Kitking, 16:40.960 --> 16:46.320 but of is just having a small pilot project with like one or two projects where we could 16:46.320 --> 16:53.120 experience the whole process and get started. But now we have a process on how we can give money 16:53.120 --> 17:00.560 to maintainers and projects, but how do we actually select projects and maintainers and for that, 17:00.640 --> 17:09.040 I'm handing over to Fabian. Yeah, so we noticed two main challenges in this regard. 17:09.840 --> 17:14.800 First of all, there are thousands of possible open source components that SAP uses on 17:14.800 --> 17:19.840 in their products and which of those products or projects do we want to give our money to. 17:20.560 --> 17:25.280 And the other challenge is in the future you might have different funding goals to the funding 17:25.280 --> 17:30.960 goals you have at the moment. For one funding round, we might prioritize improving our supply 17:30.960 --> 17:36.720 chain security while on the next funding round, you may just have the goal of giving back 17:36.720 --> 17:42.480 to the open source of their community and that results in completely different lists of perfect 17:42.480 --> 17:49.440 fitting open source projects for this funding round. So what we ended up doing is we chose 17:49.440 --> 17:55.680 an approach that based on two different methods. First of all, an internal voting, but the idea 17:55.680 --> 18:06.160 was that developers at SAP can nominate project to get funding and as long as another team says, 18:06.160 --> 18:13.120 okay, we use this product as well and we find it good as well. They get entered into this internal 18:13.120 --> 18:20.400 voting where every developer SAP has who has verified open source contribution to any project 18:20.400 --> 18:27.200 outside of SAP can cast the vote and say, okay, hey, this product is really cool. I support that 18:27.200 --> 18:35.280 you give money to it. And our expectation was that this would have a high probability of identifying 18:35.360 --> 18:44.960 crucial projects to some products and also identifying projects that are really well known and 18:46.240 --> 18:51.840 yeah maybe passion projects of some people. So what came out of this is for example, Nick 18:51.840 --> 18:57.440 so as is one of the projects that we are funding with this and yeah it's very well known and so 18:57.440 --> 19:04.640 that this fits our idea. But this advantage is maybe you're probably if you're going to 19:04.640 --> 19:10.000 do a voting which is based on my majority, you're going to get very well known projects or not 19:10.000 --> 19:17.600 the less known project that only one or two teams use but it's very important to them. So 19:17.600 --> 19:26.960 but we kind of found an exception to this rule because mold was also submitted by the person 19:27.040 --> 19:34.480 in the front row here. It's a lot less known project than I would say than Nick so as is yeah. 19:37.040 --> 19:41.760 But the second approach we chose was more we wanted to give every project a chance and we 19:41.760 --> 19:47.360 wanted to do this data driven way where we can see actually the why this would be a good 19:47.360 --> 19:57.280 candidate for open source funding. So the way we chose this is the energy is here that we don't 19:57.280 --> 20:01.920 necessarily have an inherent bias towards the well known project for example one of the project 20:01.920 --> 20:08.160 that got funding because of this is Seabrock Crossing which is a barcode processing library 20:08.160 --> 20:14.960 which is used in surprisingly many products for SAP and is probably something that nobody would 20:15.040 --> 20:23.040 have submitted as a funding candidate but yeah it's really nice that these projects also 20:23.040 --> 20:28.880 get a chance and it really is not a perfect science there's some menu filtering that's needed so 20:28.880 --> 20:34.560 you have to check the same things as you do have to check when the funding you have to check 20:34.560 --> 20:41.600 there's no SAP employees somewhere in there and there's no all things that to be as mentioned earlier 20:41.920 --> 20:49.920 yeah just the metrics are based on our internal usage the project activity 20:51.760 --> 20:59.120 security score we used to open SSF security score card and I also tried to add the truck 20:59.120 --> 21:07.360 ambassador to see how many on how many maintainers project might depend on yeah so this is 21:07.440 --> 21:15.440 it from all the presentation I hope you have a few questions for Q and A now yeah 21:15.840 --> 21:17.440 Q and A now 21:35.360 --> 21:43.760 for the first the first pitch regarding the energy data okay so you mentioned the 21:43.760 --> 21:49.200 comparison between proper the software and software you know and free software for market 21:49.200 --> 21:55.280 communication and I guess right all the framework but what I miss was the value proposition so 21:55.280 --> 22:01.200 what what is the value of you know if you go to a company you bring that message what what is the 22:01.200 --> 22:06.800 killer argument that you will use why free software is better than the properties of the right so in 22:06.800 --> 22:14.000 as light you had innovation no the time of value and of course it's faster we know that 22:16.000 --> 22:21.280 and of course I can add the cost because obviously that's free and the other is productivity 22:21.280 --> 22:27.520 but have you identified or are you willing to identify now imagine you are in front of a big you 22:27.520 --> 22:32.160 know a big guy of a one of the big energy companies that you want to convince him or have to go 22:32.160 --> 22:37.600 for a free software so which argument will you use you know compared to companies who have spent 22:37.600 --> 22:45.600 billions in standardized with a particular you know especially so complex energy market as past 22:45.600 --> 22:50.320 through the last ten years of standardizations and both on the messages as well as the framework 22:51.280 --> 23:03.120 okay so the question was what other arguments besides costs and fast innovation are there okay 23:05.280 --> 23:13.040 yeah I mean there's like you don't depend on a single vendor like yes actually we're like 23:13.040 --> 23:18.480 great planning like I'm not sure if you know that but like 70% of the market is owned by one company 23:20.480 --> 23:29.040 and like they got reasonably bought by a private equity firm and you know like if you know 23:29.040 --> 23:39.040 how private equity works like pump and dump kind of schemas are there sometimes so and then we 23:39.040 --> 23:45.440 had business behaviors happening we're like hey I'm sorry like you depend on the software now 23:45.440 --> 23:52.400 it took you want to use to integrate it unfortunately I have to cancel your contract like I'm 23:52.400 --> 23:59.840 the vendor unfortunately I have to cancel your contract but you're lucky I can sell it for you 23:59.840 --> 24:05.280 for twice the price and that kind of behavior we like like we see them sometimes happening 24:05.280 --> 24:12.480 because it's heavily like you're really bound to one software vendor and and people don't 24:12.640 --> 24:20.000 like this kind of business practices that we see here and there so the independence freedom 24:20.000 --> 24:28.880 to work with whoever is one important argument customization and I can customize for my needs as I 24:28.880 --> 24:39.440 want very important and yeah often it's also the collaboration aspect key like if we work 24:39.520 --> 24:47.200 with the European energy regulator they develop a solution with us but now suddenly all 24:47.200 --> 24:52.880 the member states they don't have to reinvent the wheel like they can just take this stuff adjusted 24:52.880 --> 24:59.120 a little bit for their own needs and and supply the European regulator with the right information 24:59.120 --> 25:06.320 so this kind of more like smoother collaboration is also one of the key arguments 25:07.200 --> 25:14.240 maybe I miss something but and I can whoever you talk with me like the stories a little bit 25:14.240 --> 25:24.320 different for sure thank you also another question for Max you mentioned something about 25:25.200 --> 25:30.160 providing training including two competitors when you're dealing with large enterprises and 25:30.160 --> 25:36.640 proprietary software transitioning staff who are used to working with that to something new 25:36.640 --> 25:41.920 that's part of what you provide as a service I guess question mark and second part is 25:41.920 --> 25:47.920 if they have issues afterwards I they start running this and then something goes breaks in the 25:47.920 --> 25:53.120 middle of the night do they call you and that's part of what they pay for yeah I mean we're like 25:53.120 --> 26:00.560 like the service companies right and like you can make service contracts to make sure that you 26:00.560 --> 26:06.560 offer 24-7 support which is needed in their cases and what I mean with training the 26:06.560 --> 26:15.200 competitors is that we need more people that are able to provide 24-7 support and being capable 26:15.200 --> 26:23.280 to develop on top and they're like we don't want to own this one single open source ecosystem 26:24.480 --> 26:29.280 but understood that part of that transition are you helping them move like when you kind of 26:29.280 --> 26:35.520 data that they have in the legacy system over yeah the contribution that's always needed 26:35.520 --> 26:40.960 I mean like transitioning like you did they are really locked in a heavy way sometimes to 26:40.960 --> 26:47.600 single software options here we can work a little bit on interoperability and they need a 26:47.600 --> 26:54.160 service and support to actually transition as well and yeah as I mentioned we shouldn't be the 26:54.160 --> 27:00.000 only company doing that like we're catalyzing that now we hope that a lot of other vendors are 27:00.000 --> 27:07.040 coming in and supporting here but you like you don't as a vendor you don't enter a support market 27:07.040 --> 27:14.320 if there's no real market there it needs to be big enough to be interesting for a lot of people 27:14.320 --> 27:18.320 and that's what we catalyzing like we starting this kind of revolutionary moment 27:22.400 --> 27:30.080 Hi question for SAP I'm building an open source task management product management tool 27:30.160 --> 27:38.640 and let's pretend that you want to have that what would I need to offer you in terms of 27:39.200 --> 27:46.720 supporting contract legal stuff I don't know so that you would buy it like 27:48.480 --> 27:55.440 from what you explained earlier I got that you mostly fund like libraries and it's mostly 27:56.080 --> 28:04.160 like spray and spray and most and more smaller things that don't have like a product that you can 28:04.160 --> 28:12.480 take to procurement and just buy it yeah so what we the our funding focused on are 28:12.480 --> 28:20.080 exactly be small components libraries which don't have a product because if you have a product 28:20.080 --> 28:25.360 and a company will nice or a nice spring from an enterprise perspective is that we actually 28:25.360 --> 28:31.760 have somebody from whom we can procure that to contract with and do these things with so that's 28:32.480 --> 28:40.320 feasible for let's say something where you have something like a hashikop word or a kathana 28:40.320 --> 28:47.040 or something like that who have a product and and sails department but if you have just a component 28:47.120 --> 28:52.160 which you maintain in your spare time like every couple days you probably don't want the 28:52.160 --> 28:58.720 hassle of like scaling that up but we really want to say hey cool stuff and really really like that 28:59.440 --> 29:04.800 and yeah so that's a bit special case if you want to scale it you probably need to have like 29:06.160 --> 29:11.840 a sales department and the contracting stuff yeah thanks 29:12.160 --> 29:22.400 and I think time is up or do we have for one more question one more okay hi I was wondering 29:22.400 --> 29:29.360 uh or I have two questions but I'll ask the first one um who and how did you convince I guess 29:29.360 --> 29:38.080 SAP to give money and maybe it's something we can do at our respective employers yeah so I mean 29:38.880 --> 29:44.800 the intrinsic motivation was there from the beginning and most people are we can follow the 29:44.800 --> 29:50.720 understanding hey this is infrastructure we are using and we probably have to pay something for that 29:51.280 --> 29:58.400 the question is how much uh and somebody needs to provide the budget for that we were quite lucky 29:58.400 --> 30:04.960 to get it kickstarted that we found somebody with an budget and we said well this sounds cool 30:05.520 --> 30:11.920 try that out we hear you have some budget and that's also what I can recommend what was 30:11.920 --> 30:18.560 really helpful don't aim for like 50 or 100 projects from the get go but target like one, two, 30:18.560 --> 30:25.280 three and then it's as well and let's say it's manageable amount where you potentially get an 30:25.280 --> 30:31.840 easier buy in that somebody says well this is worth trying out and it doesn't worth out it's not 30:31.920 --> 30:40.720 the bankrupt at land of the day and yeah okay do I have time for a little more no I don't think so 30:40.720 --> 30:44.720 so thank you for my free and enjoy the best of the show