WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:27.280 So we're going to be starting in the next minute so if you're staying for the next 00:27.280 --> 00:48.280 talk, please sit down and get cozy. And if you're not staying, please leave through. 00:48.280 --> 00:58.380 Okay, so the next session, we have Dan, Dan J, director of operations at the airline ecosystem 00:58.380 --> 01:04.280 foundation and chair of this sponsorship working group. This session is practical, focus on building 01:04.280 --> 01:09.180 your funding toolkit. And the question that motivates this session is how can developers make 01:09.180 --> 01:12.980 the chore of fundraising easier. And with that, I'll leave it to you. Thank you. 01:18.280 --> 01:31.280 Okay, very good. Okay, good afternoon. So, thanks for the introduction, Dan Jnowski. 01:31.280 --> 01:37.280 So what I'm going to be talking about today is just some concrete things that you can 01:37.280 --> 01:42.280 do in your projects that will make fundraising a little bit easier. I'm not really going to go 01:42.280 --> 01:46.780 into how to fundraise because that's a whole other topic. But these are sort of the 01:46.780 --> 01:53.280 boilerplate things that I think a project needs to have so that when funders look at your project, 01:53.280 --> 02:01.780 they have an idea of what you're all about. Okay. This QR code is actually a link to 02:01.780 --> 02:07.780 this presentation, which is currently published if you want to follow along. But there are a lot 02:07.780 --> 02:13.280 of links in here to resources. And this way you don't have to take any pictures or script 02:13.280 --> 02:21.780 or anything down. The QR code will be up at the end as well. So, no panics. Okay. So, just a few words 02:21.780 --> 02:28.780 about the Erlang ecosystem foundation. So, we support the Erlang ecosystem. We're about seven 02:28.780 --> 02:37.280 years old. And we show up in regulatory and tech forums. We work with other larger foundations 02:37.280 --> 02:44.280 to raise funds for our community to support projects, outreach, events, and so forth. And we mostly 02:44.280 --> 02:51.280 focus on the health and stability, sustainability of Erlang. It's language as a community. So, 02:51.280 --> 02:56.280 my background, I started my work with the foundation about a year ago. After ten years of work 02:56.280 --> 03:03.280 with a mixer, I saw that there was a greater purpose. And so, I've been working to help 03:03.280 --> 03:11.280 make the ecosystem more sustainable. I tend toward advocacy. So, I will try not to get on any 03:11.280 --> 03:19.280 soap boxes, but I've been involved in grassroots politics as well and advocate for renewable energy. 03:19.280 --> 03:25.280 So, just a little bit about Erlang. Some of you probably never heard of it. I'll make this brief. 03:25.280 --> 03:32.280 It's just a different approach to problem solving that uses processes as the fundamental building block, 03:32.280 --> 03:40.280 which leads to very different kinds of answers to problems that we try to solve. It's also 03:40.280 --> 03:46.280 great for building languages. So, a mixer is one of our largest. And we have a newcomer called 03:46.280 --> 03:57.280 Gleam. Okay. So, things I will not cover. Why should open source be funded? I presume that 03:57.280 --> 04:04.280 everyone sort of has an idea of why. And we know from the previous presentation that the value cycle 04:04.280 --> 04:10.280 is disconnected. And I'll make just a brief comment about that. I think that there is a fundamental 04:10.280 --> 04:17.280 disconnect between the way the, the way capital works and the way open source works, where open 04:18.280 --> 04:24.280 source is really a social act. And capital doesn't understand that. It only understands return 04:24.280 --> 04:30.280 on investment. And this creates this fundamental disconnect, which I don't believe has actually 04:30.280 --> 04:36.280 been solved. I think that government, government and non-government agencies actually provide 04:36.280 --> 04:42.280 the best sort of middle ground where it's not about return on investment in the same way that 04:43.280 --> 04:49.280 commercial interest provide or looking for. So, there's a bunch of different groups of 04:49.280 --> 04:56.280 possible funders. This is in my experience. So, people who would fund, but are just too lazy 04:56.280 --> 05:03.280 to show up, who, anyway, have people who want things and then there are people who just don't 05:03.280 --> 05:10.280 get it. Okay. So, here are some basic funding elements. So, obviously, you have finding 05:10.280 --> 05:16.280 funders, which there are lots of different ways. It depends on the size of your project as well, 05:16.280 --> 05:22.280 what kinds of things you might qualify for. There's receiving and managing the funds, which 05:22.280 --> 05:27.280 is actually one of the things that open source projects, especially small ones, are really 05:27.280 --> 05:33.280 not set up to do. So, we talk a lot about how to raise funds. We were really talk about how 05:33.280 --> 05:41.280 to, like, operationally handle the responsibility and the disbursement and the management 05:41.280 --> 05:48.280 of those things. But I'm going to mostly focus on these three bolded things, which is 05:48.280 --> 05:54.280 basically describing what's going to be funded, making sure that you have visibility. So, that's 05:54.280 --> 06:00.280 transparency and history to basically build credibility. That's really what this is all about. 06:00.280 --> 06:05.280 Someone shows up, they want to see, what is this project all about? Is it alive? Does it have a 06:05.280 --> 06:09.280 heartbeat? Does it have the kinds of things that give me confidence that if I put money into 06:09.280 --> 06:18.280 it, that that money is going to go to some good? Okay. So, basics on funding funding. So, obviously, 06:18.280 --> 06:22.280 there are direct sources. Most of you probably heard of those as well as grants. There are many 06:23.280 --> 06:29.280 organizations that are potentially grants providers. And obviously, you have your user base, 06:29.280 --> 06:36.280 sometimes those are, that's a good way. There's another thing, which is the CRA, the cyber 06:36.280 --> 06:43.280 resiliency act, which some of you have, hopefully, most of you, who have not heard of the CRA. 06:43.280 --> 06:49.280 Okay. So, I'll just briefly say that there's legislation that has passed, that there's regulation 06:49.280 --> 06:54.280 that's being written. And the CRA is basically defining for manufacturers that they are 06:54.280 --> 07:01.280 responsible for their supply chain. And open sources in basically every supply chain. Any 07:01.280 --> 07:06.280 product that has any digital element has some open source in it. And what it's doing is it's 07:06.280 --> 07:10.280 defining that there's a responsibility that the manufacturer has for all the things, all the 07:10.280 --> 07:17.280 transitive dependencies that it has. And that may create, we hope, opportunities for open 07:17.280 --> 07:25.280 source to find sustainable paths to sustainable maintenance. So, keep an eye out for that. 07:25.280 --> 07:30.280 So, obviously, you know, look at who's opening issues and filing PRs. There may be, 07:30.280 --> 07:35.280 like, companies that are using your things that you may want to try to get in touch 07:35.280 --> 07:41.280 with somehow. And this is, I think, a really important thing, the last point. 07:41.280 --> 07:46.280 We are open source. We are not a charity. When we're asking for money, we're asking for 07:46.280 --> 07:51.280 an investment. Because that's what we're doing. We're actually investing in society when 07:51.280 --> 07:57.280 we are creating open source software. We are doing social good to find that, however you are, 07:57.280 --> 08:05.280 but we're not doing it for money. We're doing it for people we will never meet. 08:05.280 --> 08:11.280 And because it is a creative act that we all somehow appreciate. So, when we're asking for money, 08:11.280 --> 08:17.280 we shouldn't be panhandling, essentially. We are asking for an investment. Okay. 08:17.280 --> 08:22.280 So, receiving funding, this is the part where it gets a little dicey. 08:22.280 --> 08:27.280 Sometimes you cannot receive funding unless you have a legal entity to receive it. 08:27.280 --> 08:32.280 If you have a bunch of contributors that would potentially benefit from it, 08:32.280 --> 08:36.280 you have to have some sort of legal entity to deal with that. 08:36.280 --> 08:40.280 Sometimes you can associate with a foundation, which will help you with those things. 08:40.280 --> 08:44.280 But then other times, you're sort of faced with the dilemma of, well, we either take the funding, 08:44.280 --> 08:49.280 we don't take the funding, we can apply for it, we can't. Because we don't have, 08:49.280 --> 08:53.280 or don't want to deal with setting up a legal person to deal with those things. 08:53.280 --> 08:58.280 And I will say that in the EU, especially because there are so many countries, 08:58.280 --> 09:04.280 every country has different rules and different, like pitfalls with setting up legal entities. 09:04.280 --> 09:08.280 So, you have to basically do a bunch of research, either yourself, 09:08.280 --> 09:14.280 or talk to people who have done it, and it's not straightforward. 09:14.280 --> 09:20.280 One thing, just getting back to the CRA, specifically, is that it does include a definition 09:20.280 --> 09:28.280 that breaks, that sort of firewalls, liability from software developers. 09:28.280 --> 09:34.280 So, if a manufacturer uses your stuff in their product and it's defective, 09:34.280 --> 09:40.280 the original developer, open source developer, is not liable in some way for that defect, 09:40.280 --> 09:44.280 because the manufacturer is actually responsible for everything. 09:44.280 --> 09:50.280 Whether they contribute back and other things is a bigger kind of discussion. 09:51.280 --> 09:56.280 So, as I said, small projects are really not set up to handle funds, 09:56.280 --> 10:04.280 but I do think that there will be, so I keep bringing this up with almost everyone I talk to. 10:04.280 --> 10:11.280 We're talking about ways sources of funding, we need to start talking about ways to help small projects, 10:11.280 --> 10:17.280 in particular, to operationalize the kinds of funding that they receive. 10:17.280 --> 10:23.280 And that includes things like grants, like writing grants. 10:23.280 --> 10:27.280 I don't know a developer that says, oh, I'm excited, I'm going to write, 10:27.280 --> 10:30.280 I'm going to subscribe for a grant today. 10:30.280 --> 10:39.280 There's a lot of help that we could leverage if the states, or the countries, 10:39.280 --> 10:48.280 saw open source as a real resource that in addition to providing funding, 10:48.280 --> 10:52.280 they also provided support in terms of an organization. 10:52.280 --> 10:56.280 So, my earlier comment about setting up a legal person, 10:56.280 --> 11:01.280 the states can basically do all that work, they have all the lawyers, they can change whatever they want, 11:01.280 --> 11:06.280 they could set up like a research institute, there's a lot of science that has done through research institutes, 11:06.280 --> 11:12.280 because what science researcher is set up to, on their own, go and look for funding. 11:12.280 --> 11:18.280 I think that open source could potentially fall, could benefit from a similar kind of model. 11:18.280 --> 11:21.280 Okay, so now let's get to the nuts and bolts. 11:21.280 --> 11:24.280 So I'm going to be referring to three example projects, 11:24.280 --> 11:32.280 Agus, which is our security initiative, hologram, which is a web framework that's written in Alexa, 11:32.280 --> 11:37.280 and EYG, which is a language written by one of our community members. 11:37.280 --> 11:48.280 Okay, so the first, the overall objective here is presenting your project in the clearest way possible, 11:48.280 --> 11:54.280 so that people understand when they come, whether it's to a GitHub repo or to a website that you set up, 11:54.280 --> 11:57.280 that the project objectives are clearly laid out, 11:57.280 --> 12:04.280 that you have a roadmap for things that you want to accomplish, that you have some means for community engagement. 12:04.280 --> 12:11.280 I've gone to any number of projects, and I have no idea how to get in touch with the maintainer. 12:11.280 --> 12:18.280 But it's also a way of keeping staying in the loop with the people that are using your stuff, 12:18.280 --> 12:21.280 and that will help with the other objectives. 12:22.280 --> 12:27.280 Having governance laid out, which is basically like how your project runs, 12:27.280 --> 12:30.280 and I'll get into the details of that. 12:30.280 --> 12:34.280 Answering the question, are you part of critical digital infrastructure, 12:34.280 --> 12:41.280 because there are funds which are specifically mandated to fund critical infrastructure? 12:41.280 --> 12:44.280 And who are your users? 12:44.280 --> 12:50.280 If there's a way for you to represent who your users are, that also helps. 12:51.280 --> 12:59.280 Okay, so project objectives, or sometimes goals, it kind of depends on the type of project you have, 12:59.280 --> 13:10.280 so having a clear list of public, publicly published objectives is a great place to start. 13:10.280 --> 13:17.280 The objectives can be technical, like performance, they can be security oriented, they could even be organizational, 13:17.280 --> 13:23.280 but general maintenance, as an objective, is like a two sort of vague, 13:23.280 --> 13:28.280 to really inspire anyone to be like, oh, I want to fund that. 13:28.280 --> 13:34.280 All right, so let's see if what happens when I click this link, whoops. 13:34.280 --> 13:36.280 Okay, I guess that doesn't work. 13:36.280 --> 13:38.280 Hold on. 13:38.280 --> 13:40.280 Okay. 13:41.280 --> 13:44.280 Okay. 13:44.280 --> 13:50.280 Drag it, which way are you, whoop. 13:50.280 --> 13:57.280 Okay. 13:57.280 --> 14:03.280 Wow, I didn't expect a demo to die like this. 14:03.280 --> 14:04.280 Huh. 14:04.280 --> 14:09.280 Okay, well, I guess that we're not going to do that, because what's that? 14:09.280 --> 14:14.280 No, it's connected to the Wi-Fi, so. 14:14.280 --> 14:19.280 All right, I don't want to do this. 14:19.280 --> 14:21.280 So you have the slides. 14:21.280 --> 14:24.280 Oh, this is actually kind of annoying. 14:24.280 --> 14:28.280 Let me just make sure that I didn't spell it's up now, that's correct. 14:28.280 --> 14:31.280 All right. 14:31.280 --> 14:33.280 No. 14:33.280 --> 14:37.280 I didn't spell it. 14:38.280 --> 14:43.280 Huh. 14:43.280 --> 14:49.280 The dual stack, so maybe I should try the other one. 14:49.280 --> 14:53.280 Yeah, I'd probably know, right? 14:53.280 --> 14:55.280 Other networks. 14:55.280 --> 14:57.280 Let's try this one. 14:57.280 --> 15:00.280 This is really funny. 15:00.280 --> 15:06.280 Try this again. 15:06.280 --> 15:16.280 Okay. 15:16.280 --> 15:19.280 Well, we'll just move on then. 15:19.280 --> 15:21.280 Okay, so I encourage you to look. 15:21.280 --> 15:29.280 You have the slides, so there's a very clear table of objectives that the project, the 15:29.280 --> 15:32.280 biggest objective of project lays out. 15:32.280 --> 15:39.280 And it includes the, it's basically just a table of objectives. 15:39.280 --> 15:42.280 I can't describe it much more than that. 15:42.280 --> 15:44.280 Having that, good place to start. 15:44.280 --> 15:50.280 Okay, so let's move on to like feature objectives. 15:50.280 --> 15:51.280 Right? 15:51.280 --> 15:52.280 Okay. 15:52.280 --> 15:54.280 So we know people want features. 15:54.280 --> 15:56.280 Oh, look at that. 15:56.280 --> 15:58.280 So you probably know what they are. 15:58.280 --> 16:03.280 It's a really good idea to like put them out like these are features that we want to build. 16:03.280 --> 16:06.280 There are obvious feature areas. 16:06.280 --> 16:09.280 It's also good opportunity to increase awareness. 16:09.280 --> 16:17.280 So when people are using whatever you have and they see, oh, this is a feature that they would like to implement. 16:17.280 --> 16:21.280 It creates some awareness over where the project is going. 16:21.280 --> 16:27.280 The hologram, the hologram site actually has a really cool kind of graph of all the features that 16:27.280 --> 16:35.280 they're looking, that they have implemented, that they're looking to implement. 16:35.280 --> 16:39.280 Security objectives are sort of evergreen. 16:39.280 --> 16:50.280 Like everything has some need and if you think, if you think along security lines and layout objectives for security, 16:50.280 --> 16:55.280 those are things that can also attract funding. 16:55.280 --> 16:58.280 So let's see. 16:58.280 --> 17:06.280 There's a bunch of resources here on like secure software development. 17:06.280 --> 17:15.280 And some other resources that will give you some other ideas about like how to frame security for your own purposes. 17:15.280 --> 17:20.280 We're all going toward a world that will want to have software build materials. 17:20.280 --> 17:23.280 So dealing with that at some level. 17:23.280 --> 17:36.280 Reproducible builds and then basically any kind of supply chain, vulnerability work can often attract or be a good thing to fundraise around. 17:36.280 --> 17:50.280 Okay, so having a clear roadmap and this is sort of different from objectives is the list of things that you have done completed if it was funded by who 17:50.280 --> 17:51.280 contributed to it. 17:51.280 --> 17:56.280 And then the list of things that you have in progress or the list of things that you want to do. 17:56.280 --> 18:01.280 And these could map to PRs or they could be sort of larger than that. 18:01.280 --> 18:10.280 But what you want to do is illustrate that you have, you have an idea of what you want to do, how much time it will take, 18:10.280 --> 18:18.280 whether it's time, you can even put a dollar signs or euro signs on it saying like this would be 2000 euros to complete. 18:18.280 --> 18:24.280 It makes it easier to talk about what you need in the context of grants. 18:24.280 --> 18:33.280 It also potentially is easier to talk to sponsors about the needs that they have and the kinds of things that they could fill in on the roadmap. 18:33.280 --> 18:46.280 If you have generally interested corporate users and this is available, then you actually have the, they can literally go shopping in the sense. 18:46.280 --> 18:54.280 You might want to put in things about dependencies like you can't pick something that's at the bottom of the list because all these other things have to be done first. 18:54.280 --> 18:59.280 But defining these things really helps. 18:59.280 --> 19:07.280 Having a good model for community engagement and this is, this is really about being in touch with your users. 19:07.280 --> 19:15.280 But I think that there's another part of this which is, it's a really good indication of the product health. 19:15.280 --> 19:26.280 Because the more activity, the more useful and kind of constructive activity there is, the better feeling someone gets for the kind of vitality that you have. 19:26.280 --> 19:37.280 This is a, this is sort of nice if you can do it, but it actually takes a lot of effort and it also takes a little bit of restraint to not like do the easy things, 19:37.280 --> 19:46.280 but to actually have the easy things and have like a really good way for people to get engaged in potentially doing their making their first contribution. 19:46.280 --> 20:00.280 And also documenting what prerequisites exist, so that someone can basically start from scratch and see a list of, okay, I need this software install them, I computer, I need, you know, this kind of knowledge. 20:00.280 --> 20:11.280 And if you write that documentation, you will typically find that you've missed something or that there's some sort of sharp edge that you can polish off that will make contribution easier. 20:11.280 --> 20:21.280 The hologram contributing link is actually really great. He goes through all of these steps and I think it's a good model there too. 20:22.280 --> 20:38.280 Governance is really about projecting a level of diligence about how you're organized and it includes a lot of topics from like how, how PR's emerged to like what license you're choosing. 20:38.280 --> 20:40.280 Let's see. 20:40.280 --> 20:50.280 And then in the course in the context of funding, you have to sort of think about how you manage governance around those items. 20:50.280 --> 21:03.280 So funders look for like how you're composed because they don't want to just throw money into like sort of a nebulous like we don't really know how it's how it's being managed. 21:03.280 --> 21:09.280 Okay, it also helps the project itself to have very clear expectations about how things run. 21:09.280 --> 21:22.280 So you may not get 100% agreement across all contributors, but if everyone can abide by the same set of rules, then you'll end up with better just better operation. 21:22.280 --> 21:39.280 Having a clear security policy, so that first link there, if you click on that, lays out a very clear security policy, who to contact, how to contact what what comprises a security like a vulnerability report. 21:39.280 --> 21:47.280 And that is actually like forget hub, there's there's a tab like specifically for security. 21:47.280 --> 22:04.280 There are a few other good examples and then the open SSF open source project open source project security baseline will give you some other guidance in that same place. 22:04.280 --> 22:09.280 Operational issues, so this side sort of alluded to before. 22:09.280 --> 22:16.280 These are things that a project kind of has to take on if it wants to do fundraising of its own. 22:16.280 --> 22:33.280 You have to figure out like well project management kind of relates to the roadmap and issue triages as along the same lines, but grant application and keeping up with the community which can actually take a lot of time. 22:34.280 --> 22:45.280 The one thing that we don't think enough about is getting non programmers involved in our projects and some of that could be like designers depending on what your think your project is about. 22:45.280 --> 23:02.280 But getting people who will spend a little bit of time engaging with the community or even like maybe helping out with finding granting sources or writing grants is something that a developer doesn't necessarily want to do, but someone else may be like really happy to be involved in your project. 23:02.280 --> 23:06.280 We'll alleviate some of the load. 23:06.280 --> 23:13.280 So basically what you're trying to do is build confidence in whoever might give you money. 23:13.280 --> 23:19.280 And so you want to fund it to sort of envision that their money is going to go to a good place. 23:19.280 --> 23:23.280 Good things are going to happen with it. They're going to have some there's going to be accountability. 23:23.280 --> 23:26.280 They're going to be able to see some results. They're going to be able to report back. 23:26.280 --> 23:31.280 Yes, we did this thing and and we've got a good outcomes. 23:31.280 --> 23:38.280 Keeping a history of what you've done and I don't mean like close PRs. I mean like actually documenting it. 23:38.280 --> 23:45.280 So that's why I said like on the road map, make sure you keep all the things that have happened already in there because that's going to help people understand. 23:45.280 --> 23:51.280 Oh, these people have done all these things and have completed these these different milestones. 23:51.280 --> 24:05.280 It's great to have plans and paths to go and again transparency and structure all sort of lead to this answering the question are these serious people. 24:05.280 --> 24:17.280 So I'd like to thank our funders, the early ecosystem foundation and and that is build your funding toolkit. Thank you. 24:17.280 --> 24:26.280 I'm happy to take any questions. 24:26.280 --> 24:32.280 I don't know how much time how much time do we have now. 24:32.280 --> 24:36.280 Okay, well go ahead. 24:36.280 --> 24:39.280 So I see a thing for the vote. 24:39.280 --> 24:44.280 I see a lot of suggestions. 24:44.280 --> 24:52.280 I'll spend there when once you have. 24:52.280 --> 25:02.280 What would been to happen once you have some potential funders, but something with struggle with is to have actual potential funders look at a project and which out and 25:02.280 --> 25:09.280 we've been trying to push for that for two years and we've been talking with three or four potential funders. 25:09.280 --> 25:10.280 Yeah. 25:10.280 --> 25:16.280 And I don't know how to make up more visibility that we actually looking for that. 25:16.280 --> 25:17.280 I don't know. 25:17.280 --> 25:22.280 So your question is how to get more visibility or. 25:22.280 --> 25:23.280 Yes. 25:23.280 --> 25:28.280 Yeah. 25:28.280 --> 25:30.280 Yeah. 25:30.280 --> 25:31.280 Yeah. 25:31.280 --> 25:36.280 Visibility is a problem like there's you know what hundreds of thousands millions of projects. 25:36.280 --> 25:41.280 It's it's hard to stand out in in a very crowded world. 25:41.280 --> 25:49.280 It's one of the reasons why looking for grants is actually feels more constructive in some ways because you can do it actively. 25:49.280 --> 25:59.280 You can pursue you end up with with a different problem, which is the world is filled with grant potential grants and finding them is also not trivial. 25:59.280 --> 26:06.280 It can depend on like what your project is about there may be a way to focus in on it. 26:06.280 --> 26:11.280 There isn't like a really good answer to your question, at least not one that I've come to. 26:11.280 --> 26:14.280 If you're part of an ecosystem, it does also help. 26:14.280 --> 26:16.280 Just a little bit more color. 26:16.280 --> 26:21.280 So the early ecosystem is like a is a constellation of a lot of related things. 26:21.280 --> 26:26.280 So we have companies that are using our language or one of our languages. 26:26.280 --> 26:30.280 We have open source projects which are like creating components. 26:30.280 --> 26:33.280 So we have a little bit of a known pool. 26:33.280 --> 26:38.280 And if you can identify an ecosystem that you may be even related to. 26:38.280 --> 26:43.280 Then that can showing up at places talking about your project. 26:43.280 --> 26:49.280 You know, like all the standard things is really the only kind of answer that there is. 26:49.280 --> 26:52.280 But I feel for what your your plate is. 26:52.280 --> 26:53.280 It's not simple. 26:53.280 --> 26:58.280 Any other any other questions? 26:58.280 --> 26:59.280 Yeah. 26:59.280 --> 27:00.280 Yeah. 27:09.280 --> 27:19.280 First, thanks for this short but very good introduction to this activity which is not really usual and easy. 27:19.280 --> 27:20.280 Pickable. 27:20.280 --> 27:23.280 Like I have two questions slightly related to each other. 27:23.280 --> 27:33.280 First one is how much ready to use functionality has to be done before doing this activity. 27:33.280 --> 27:37.280 Like a easy requirement to provide something working to show. 27:37.280 --> 27:46.280 Or it's small like a real investment cycle where we promising and presenting trying to find a fit for market. 27:46.280 --> 28:02.280 And as related question is what could be a good start in legal entity for an individual developer looking for a way in that like a port? 28:02.280 --> 28:03.280 Yeah. 28:03.280 --> 28:04.280 I understand. 28:04.280 --> 28:05.280 All right. 28:05.280 --> 28:10.280 So the first the first part of your question is can you do this with a greenfield project that you haven't started yet? 28:10.280 --> 28:16.280 And the second is what kind of legal entities or can you even consider? 28:16.280 --> 28:23.280 So I think it's really hard to do this kind of stuff with. 28:23.280 --> 28:28.280 I think that this can help a greenfield project because you can lay out what you want to accomplish. 28:29.280 --> 28:38.280 I think ultimately it depends on what your source of funding is and whether you can get someone interested in funding a greenfield project. 28:38.280 --> 28:46.280 So a lot of well so like the cyber attack agency is looking to fund things that are part of like the critical infrastructure. 28:46.280 --> 28:50.280 So obviously a greenfield project is not going to be part of that. 28:51.280 --> 28:56.280 It really is sort of undefined but I think that no matter what. 28:56.280 --> 29:01.280 If you're going to try to sell essentially sell someone a greenfield project, you need these things. 29:01.280 --> 29:03.280 You need a set of objectives. 29:03.280 --> 29:04.280 You need some roadmap. 29:04.280 --> 29:10.280 You need some sort of indication of the level of effort that it will take to get some place meaningful. 29:10.280 --> 29:15.280 Even as a personal exercise of practicality for like what it will take to do. 29:15.280 --> 29:19.280 So the hologram project actually he started just working on it in his own. 29:19.280 --> 29:23.280 He was doing consulting work on the side to sort of make his life sustainable. 29:23.280 --> 29:29.280 And then he got to a point where he had like a bunch of stuff done and then he started looking for funding. 29:29.280 --> 29:32.280 So that's the first part of your question. 29:32.280 --> 29:34.280 I think that's the best answer I can give. 29:34.280 --> 29:37.280 The second question about legal entities. 29:37.280 --> 29:43.280 I can't really give you any good advice about it because it depends on the country you're in. 29:43.280 --> 29:52.280 It depends on your on a bunch of other things and there are occasionally lawyers that are floating around. 29:52.280 --> 29:59.280 Whenever I see a lawyer floating around in the open source world, I always introduce myself because they're not enough of them. 29:59.280 --> 30:03.280 Like we usually sort of you know, villainize lawyers in some way. 30:03.280 --> 30:08.280 But the lawyers that float around here are really for the most part. 30:08.280 --> 30:12.280 I haven't met one otherwise are interested in supporting open source. 30:12.280 --> 30:15.280 So I have talked with a few. 30:15.280 --> 30:24.280 This is actually a question that I ask almost every lawyer that I come to which is what's a good venue to set up a legal entity. 30:24.280 --> 30:34.280 And I get that the answers are usually no place or maybe here or maybe there but they're downsides. 30:34.280 --> 30:48.280 So one of the things that I so one of the earlier talks today was they reference the open comment for what is it the European. 30:48.280 --> 30:55.280 I don't remember the name of it at the top of my head but there's an open comment period for European funding. 30:55.280 --> 31:03.280 And most people are again focused on oh well how do we get funding to open source. 31:03.280 --> 31:09.280 And I would say that what we also need to focus on is on a country by country basis. 31:09.280 --> 31:20.280 Research institutes that basically give a place for a small group of developers or an individual developer to be working on something that's meaningful. 31:20.280 --> 31:28.280 And not have all that legal stuff and operational stuff to deal with because it's not our thing. 31:28.280 --> 31:33.280 It's it's unreasonable we're not running a business so that it's anyway. 31:33.280 --> 31:37.280 I think I that's the best answer I can give anyone else. 31:37.280 --> 31:38.280 Yeah. 31:38.280 --> 31:39.280 This one. 31:39.280 --> 31:40.280 Oh go ahead. 31:40.280 --> 31:41.280 No no. 31:41.280 --> 31:42.280 Sorry. 31:50.280 --> 31:52.280 Open source collective is okay. 31:52.280 --> 32:02.280 Open source collective is one answer. 32:02.280 --> 32:04.280 Another question. 32:04.280 --> 32:07.280 Last question. 32:07.280 --> 32:08.280 Yeah. 32:08.280 --> 32:19.280 It's actually kind of follow up of what you just mentioned about all the what is seen as boring legal or accounting stuff. 32:19.280 --> 32:20.280 Yeah. 32:20.280 --> 32:21.280 Yeah. 32:21.280 --> 32:24.280 You said something but I think it's actually very important. 32:24.280 --> 32:27.280 You said at some point during your talk. 32:27.280 --> 32:31.280 You said that you don't know which country is the best blah blah blah. 32:31.280 --> 32:35.280 And you said something along the line of ask around. 32:35.280 --> 32:41.280 Because you know in this country, this person, this lower your blah blah blah. 32:42.280 --> 32:52.280 I feel like it's somehow sort of secret or I know this guy you should talk to him because you're in Belgium or you're in Italy and blah blah. 32:52.280 --> 33:04.280 And I think we should find a way to set up I wouldn't say a list of open source friendly accountants in Italy or Germany or whatever but I think that kind of stuff would be useful. 33:04.280 --> 33:05.280 Yeah. 33:05.280 --> 33:07.280 I think that that's quite reasonable. 33:07.280 --> 33:15.280 We apply the open source mentality to this problem will actually make a lot more progress. 33:15.280 --> 33:17.280 And I think that's all we have. 33:17.280 --> 33:18.280 Thank you very much. 33:18.280 --> 33:28.280 Thank you.