WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:06.600 All right, well, we get set up. 00:06.600 --> 00:08.200 I'd like to welcome our next speaker, 00:08.200 --> 00:10.600 Oz-John Oost to the stage. 00:10.600 --> 00:13.000 He is a founding member and president of the Free 00:13.000 --> 00:14.400 Software Association in Turkey, 00:14.400 --> 00:17.000 and a founding member of Hacker Space Instumble. 00:17.000 --> 00:18.800 He's going to give a critical defense 00:18.800 --> 00:21.800 like a new PG that frames user on cryptographic keys 00:21.800 --> 00:24.000 as the only defense against digital feudalism. 00:24.000 --> 00:26.200 So, how may we welcome him to the stage, everyone? 00:31.000 --> 00:31.800 We're right now. 00:31.800 --> 00:33.800 OK. 00:33.800 --> 00:39.600 So, hello, and thank you for coming at an early hour, 00:39.600 --> 00:43.600 because some stands are still like building up. 00:43.600 --> 00:44.400 It's a huge crowd. 00:44.400 --> 00:46.400 Thank you for coming in. 00:46.400 --> 00:49.800 I'm going to talk not talk. 00:49.800 --> 00:53.800 I'm probably going to defense going to PG today. 00:53.800 --> 00:56.400 In this talk, 00:56.400 --> 01:03.400 so he made a great introduction, but if you ask who am I, 01:03.400 --> 01:07.400 I'm a daily and regular user of the new PG. 01:07.400 --> 01:12.400 I do, I do and use the new PG encryption 01:12.400 --> 01:15.400 authentication like in a daily basis. 01:15.400 --> 01:19.200 And I'm a founding member of Free Software Association 01:19.200 --> 01:22.200 in Turkey, Oz-John Oost, and Hacker Space Instumble. 01:22.200 --> 01:24.400 Unfortunately, it's defined right now. 01:24.400 --> 01:32.800 And we wrote a book for end users mainly. 01:32.800 --> 01:38.800 It's a security guide, basically, to tell people 01:38.800 --> 01:43.600 how to, like, survive in digital spaces. 01:43.600 --> 01:50.400 So, this talk is based on an article published 01:50.400 --> 01:53.400 in our Association's website, 60 years ago, 01:53.400 --> 01:55.400 but things never change. 01:55.400 --> 01:58.600 So, the cycle comes again. 01:58.600 --> 02:03.000 Every year, in every six months, every two years, 02:03.000 --> 02:07.000 a blog post, a video, something just shows up, 02:07.000 --> 02:10.600 and says, the new PG is that. 02:10.600 --> 02:13.600 By the way, in this slide, I use the new PG or GPG, 02:13.600 --> 02:18.800 but it mostly covers open PGPS law. 02:18.800 --> 02:22.400 And the reasons are usually the same. 02:22.400 --> 02:24.200 It's too hard to use. 02:24.200 --> 02:26.000 It's too old. 02:26.000 --> 02:28.400 I don't know what this means. 02:28.400 --> 02:31.800 It's too complicated for normal users. 02:31.800 --> 02:33.200 It's funny. 02:33.200 --> 02:38.000 Two nerdy, and sometimes replaced with something else. 02:38.000 --> 02:44.400 And there are some other things. 02:44.400 --> 02:47.200 That says, you cannot secure your email anyway, 02:47.200 --> 02:50.400 because it will leak your metadata. 02:50.400 --> 02:51.600 It has no meaning. 02:51.600 --> 02:54.000 All ignored use, so it's lame. 02:54.000 --> 02:57.000 Basically, you are, like, a group of crypto nerds, 02:57.000 --> 03:00.000 and you do it together. 03:00.000 --> 03:02.800 Web of trust is broken. 03:02.800 --> 03:06.000 So, why don't you just leave it? 03:06.000 --> 03:07.800 I installed. 03:07.800 --> 03:10.200 You can insert any app here. 03:10.200 --> 03:12.000 Like, we have a bunch of them. 03:12.000 --> 03:14.800 From some proprietary store. 03:14.800 --> 03:19.000 And now, I'm fully secure. 03:19.000 --> 03:21.800 I don't need anything to do else. 03:21.800 --> 03:26.400 And from the nerdy side, we usually 03:26.400 --> 03:33.800 got something like, the new PG has an irrelevant issue 03:33.800 --> 03:37.200 on the level of NSA, like a vulnerability. 03:37.200 --> 03:42.400 Only, like, colors you, if you're an Edward Snowden level. 03:42.400 --> 03:43.200 Someone. 03:43.200 --> 03:46.400 And now, that's why it's obsolete. 03:46.400 --> 03:50.600 So, switch to, like, modern crypto. 03:50.600 --> 03:53.600 And unfortunately, this is the saddest part. 03:53.600 --> 03:55.400 I am nothing to hide. 03:55.400 --> 04:02.600 So, why you need to encrypt something. 04:02.600 --> 04:13.600 So, these people usually assume that users are stupid and lazy. 04:13.600 --> 04:15.600 And security must be invisible for that. 04:15.600 --> 04:21.400 Like, freedom is optional, they say. 04:21.400 --> 04:22.400 It's not. 04:22.400 --> 04:26.600 It's essential, because if you give up from your freedom, 04:26.600 --> 04:31.800 you give up freedom for everyone else. 04:31.800 --> 04:36.400 And they say, if it's not perfect, it's worthless. 04:36.400 --> 04:38.400 We're not Edward Snowden. 04:38.400 --> 04:40.000 They're a threat models. 04:40.000 --> 04:43.000 So, nothing is perfect. 04:43.000 --> 04:47.600 We're trying to make things perfect. 04:47.600 --> 04:52.600 And almost always, it comes to someone else 04:52.600 --> 04:56.000 should manage identity. 04:56.000 --> 05:00.400 And, yeah, it's not a UX debate. 05:00.400 --> 05:02.200 It's about power. 05:02.200 --> 05:05.600 Like, who controls your keys? 05:05.600 --> 05:07.800 Your identity. 05:07.800 --> 05:11.400 Who do you trust about this? 05:11.400 --> 05:16.400 How do you revoke your keys? 05:16.400 --> 05:18.200 And, about the continuity. 05:18.200 --> 05:23.200 So, here comes the term digital feudalism. 05:23.200 --> 05:30.200 And, you know, the era's in human history. 05:30.200 --> 05:35.000 Usually, in names, after the most valuable thing, 05:35.000 --> 05:41.200 the valuable property, for example, the Iron Age. 05:41.200 --> 05:48.400 In the Iron Age, Iron was the most valuable thing. 05:48.400 --> 05:52.800 Who has Iron has the power? 05:52.800 --> 05:54.600 They had weapons. 05:54.600 --> 05:59.000 They had agriculture, tools, everything. 05:59.000 --> 06:02.400 And now, we are living in digital era. 06:02.400 --> 06:08.920 So, who owns digital identities, rules of earth basically? 06:09.120 --> 06:13.120 And now, unfortunately, our infrastructure 06:13.120 --> 06:16.920 is owned by just a few companies. 06:16.920 --> 06:20.520 There are some fun. 06:20.520 --> 06:22.920 We were talking about, at the previous talk here, 06:22.920 --> 06:25.120 we were talking about clubs there, right? 06:25.120 --> 06:32.520 Like, it went down and the half of the internet collapse, basically. 06:32.520 --> 06:36.120 But the value is produced by many. 06:36.120 --> 06:40.120 We all use technology. 06:40.120 --> 06:47.120 So, you don't need to understand. 06:47.120 --> 06:49.120 Is the nurse of them? 06:49.120 --> 07:00.520 Because, some companies gives you a package. 07:00.520 --> 07:03.120 That will make you safe. 07:03.120 --> 07:06.120 You don't need to understand how it's working. 07:06.120 --> 07:12.120 You don't need to understand the technology, the idea behind it. 07:12.120 --> 07:16.520 We will just handle the thing, just download an app and be the safe. 07:16.520 --> 07:17.320 You know what's up? 07:17.320 --> 07:18.520 What's up, works like this? 07:18.520 --> 07:21.120 It says there is an end to end encryption. 07:21.120 --> 07:28.720 You just download the app and it will work. 07:28.720 --> 07:36.720 But GNUPG actually comes from a different era. 07:36.720 --> 07:44.720 The era when the hacker culture was leading the technology. 07:44.720 --> 07:48.720 And the user responsibility was a thing. 07:48.720 --> 07:53.720 As I said, if you say, the users are lazy and stupid. 07:53.720 --> 08:01.720 It's basically saying, like, users cannot have the responsibility to handle 08:01.720 --> 08:08.720 their keys, their infrastructure, their encryption. 08:08.720 --> 08:11.720 And back then, there was no app stores. 08:11.720 --> 08:17.720 There was no vote gardens and no invisible cryptography. 08:17.720 --> 08:21.720 So yes, GNUPG is hard. 08:21.720 --> 08:29.720 If you compare to the others, but silver computers. 08:29.720 --> 08:35.720 Twenty years ago, there was a term about knowing how to use a computer. 08:35.720 --> 08:38.720 Computers were not like that. 08:38.720 --> 08:41.720 Not everybody was using them. 08:41.720 --> 08:47.720 And within the time, the complexity didn't disappear. 08:47.720 --> 08:52.720 If you look at the low level, the complex is still there. 08:52.720 --> 08:56.720 But we built a layer on it. 08:56.720 --> 08:58.720 The complexity disappeared. 08:58.720 --> 08:59.720 Not disappeared. 08:59.720 --> 09:02.720 It was hidden under a layer. 09:02.720 --> 09:10.720 So now, we lost our right to fix on so many software. 09:10.720 --> 09:11.720 And hardware. 09:11.720 --> 09:16.720 We lost user autonomy. 09:16.720 --> 09:24.720 We lost inspectability, especially on proprietary software. 09:24.720 --> 09:28.720 And the encryption followed the same path. 09:28.720 --> 09:33.720 The capital wants to control the crypto. 09:33.720 --> 09:37.720 So now, privacy is a product. 09:37.720 --> 09:39.720 Apple sells you the privacy. 09:39.720 --> 09:46.720 Because the fear is profitable. 09:46.720 --> 09:53.720 This is the main idea of the capital, as Karl Marx said. 09:53.720 --> 09:57.720 And the control still remains centralized. 09:57.720 --> 10:02.720 We trust on the central authorities. 10:02.720 --> 10:10.720 So I'm talking about mostly proprietary software and big corporations. 10:10.720 --> 10:15.720 So when you say, just use signal. 10:15.720 --> 10:20.720 Signal is an excellent software. 10:20.720 --> 10:24.720 They have so many problems. 10:24.720 --> 10:27.720 We have forward secrecy right now. 10:27.720 --> 10:30.720 And the usability is great. 10:31.720 --> 10:34.720 But it's basically a world garden. 10:34.720 --> 10:40.720 Because we don't have federation. 10:40.720 --> 10:47.720 Not only that, but also if we have f-droid users. 10:47.720 --> 10:51.720 There was a project a few years ago. 10:51.720 --> 10:53.720 It's not frequency, I guess. 10:53.720 --> 11:01.720 It was another client of the official signal software. 11:01.720 --> 11:05.720 And they threatened the developer to remove it from the f-droid. 11:05.720 --> 11:09.720 So they said, signal server. 11:09.720 --> 11:12.720 The one runs on the signal.org is ours. 11:12.720 --> 11:18.720 So you have to use the official app from signal.org. 11:18.720 --> 11:21.720 You can build your own server. 11:21.720 --> 11:25.720 But you cannot build an app for our server. 11:25.720 --> 11:28.720 So it's basically a world garden. 11:28.720 --> 11:31.720 Your identity is f-bound. 11:31.720 --> 11:36.720 You cannot remove the identity from the app. 11:36.720 --> 11:42.720 It ties with signal app. 11:42.720 --> 11:46.720 So just use matrix. 11:46.720 --> 11:48.720 You can say. 11:48.720 --> 11:52.720 matrix solves one of the problems of the signal. 11:52.720 --> 11:55.720 Yes, the protocol is open. 11:55.720 --> 11:58.720 And it has federation. 11:58.720 --> 12:02.720 But still, it's mostly about instant messaging on me. 12:02.720 --> 12:09.720 And the cryptography on matrix is usually bounded with the purpose. 12:09.720 --> 12:11.720 And also it's not mandatory. 12:11.720 --> 12:15.720 Like you can use matrix without any encryption. 12:16.720 --> 12:19.720 And it's not a general identity system. 12:19.720 --> 12:29.720 And also, like, if you are talking about using something easy on matrix, 12:29.720 --> 12:32.720 I'm personally using GlimiJoyS. 12:32.720 --> 12:35.720 And for the false damage stuff, 12:35.720 --> 12:40.720 like so many their rooms are using matrix to chat. 12:40.720 --> 12:47.720 Just try to use push notifications on the element.io. 12:47.720 --> 12:55.720 And you will see if it's easy to use and set up or not. 12:55.720 --> 12:58.720 So there is a pattern. 12:58.720 --> 13:03.720 Modern tools on cryptography are usually single purpose. 13:03.720 --> 13:07.720 Like instant messaging and it's sold. 13:07.720 --> 13:12.720 And there is a provider on the media. 13:12.720 --> 13:17.720 And you use their servers or their protocol. 13:17.720 --> 13:19.720 The key management is open. 13:19.720 --> 13:23.720 Have you ever seen any signal message literally on the encrypted? 13:23.720 --> 13:25.720 Probably not. 13:25.720 --> 13:28.720 Because it handles everything for you. 13:28.720 --> 13:30.720 It's open. 13:30.720 --> 13:33.720 And the identity is not portable. 13:33.720 --> 13:36.720 Sometimes it's tied to your device. 13:36.720 --> 13:41.720 Sometimes it's tied to your account. 13:41.720 --> 13:46.720 So what GlimiPG gives you basically at this point? 13:46.720 --> 13:49.720 The key sovereignty. 13:49.720 --> 13:54.720 You have your key, you have your identity. 13:54.720 --> 13:59.720 You can export it either in binary formats or plain text formats. 13:59.720 --> 14:00.720 You can see it. 14:00.720 --> 14:03.720 You can revoke it. 14:03.720 --> 14:08.720 It's one of the most important features of the GlimiPG. 14:08.720 --> 14:14.720 You can generate a revocation certificate and use it to revoke your key. 14:14.720 --> 14:17.720 If you lost your key or your key is compromised. 14:17.720 --> 14:19.720 It's a great feature. 14:19.720 --> 14:23.720 You can extend your key, add new identities. 14:23.720 --> 14:28.720 Like if it's expired, you can extend anything. 14:28.720 --> 14:33.720 You can back up your key. 14:33.720 --> 14:38.720 Either in a file or in a paper. 14:38.720 --> 14:42.720 This is a GlimiPG privacy. 14:42.720 --> 14:46.720 You can hold it in your hands. 14:46.720 --> 14:51.720 Either in this form or in that form. 14:51.720 --> 14:54.720 Or maybe in that form. 14:54.720 --> 14:56.720 It's a GlimiPG smart card. 14:56.720 --> 14:58.720 This is my key. 14:58.720 --> 15:00.720 And this is my key too. 15:00.720 --> 15:03.720 And there is a paper backup. 15:03.720 --> 15:05.720 It is stumbled for me. 15:05.720 --> 15:08.720 And this is my key as well. 15:08.720 --> 15:13.720 So we can go offline forever. 15:13.720 --> 15:17.720 If internet goes on the black card right now, 15:17.720 --> 15:22.720 GlimiPG keys are still usable because we have it in our hands. 15:23.720 --> 15:26.720 By the way, if you want to back up it, 15:26.720 --> 15:29.720 you can print it like this as well. 15:29.720 --> 15:31.720 On QR code. 15:31.720 --> 15:33.720 So now it's machine readable. 15:33.720 --> 15:35.720 There was a tool back then. 15:35.720 --> 15:38.720 But now it's written in Python 2. 15:38.720 --> 15:39.720 I suppose. 15:39.720 --> 15:43.720 So I wrote a tool to put your keys like this. 15:43.720 --> 15:49.720 You can find it on the description in for the website. 15:50.720 --> 15:55.720 So it's basically identity without any permission. 15:55.720 --> 15:58.720 There is no central authority. 15:58.720 --> 16:00.720 No mandatory server. 16:00.720 --> 16:02.720 No owner of anything. 16:02.720 --> 16:05.720 You own the key and you own the trust. 16:05.720 --> 16:07.720 No phone number. 16:07.720 --> 16:08.720 No account. 16:08.720 --> 16:10.720 You are on 30 to 30 basic. 16:10.720 --> 16:17.720 And if it comes to the authority of trust, 16:18.720 --> 16:21.720 I need to mention something like, 16:21.720 --> 16:23.720 to mentioning signal. 16:23.720 --> 16:28.720 If you want to download signal from the official website, 16:28.720 --> 16:31.720 there is a method of verification. 16:31.720 --> 16:34.720 Is there anyone who does it? 16:34.720 --> 16:43.720 It verifies why are the fingerprint of the HTTPS certificate basically. 16:43.720 --> 16:48.720 But HTTPS certificates are usually bound 16:48.720 --> 16:52.720 on some certificate authority. 16:52.720 --> 16:53.720 The CA. 16:53.720 --> 16:57.720 And in the CA list of your system, 16:57.720 --> 17:01.720 there are certain entries from governments. 17:01.720 --> 17:06.720 For example, in Turkey, there was an authority called Turk trust. 17:06.720 --> 17:09.720 And it's like government owned. 17:10.720 --> 17:16.720 So they created wildcard certificates on Google.com, 17:16.720 --> 17:18.720 Gmail.com, whatever. 17:18.720 --> 17:20.720 And why are that? 17:20.720 --> 17:25.720 They were doing many intermediary attacks. 17:25.720 --> 17:27.720 You cannot avoid it. 17:27.720 --> 17:32.720 Everything is like vulnerable. 17:32.720 --> 17:35.720 But if you have the key and you have the trust, 17:35.720 --> 17:39.720 you can determine your level of trust. 17:39.720 --> 17:43.720 It will not be a problem. 17:43.720 --> 17:47.720 So, there is a thing called web of trust. 17:47.720 --> 17:54.720 Now, whenever you see, whenever you see or you say web of trust, 17:54.720 --> 17:58.720 in case of GNUPG, people usually say, 17:58.720 --> 17:59.720 it's done. 17:59.720 --> 18:02.720 Like the SKS servers are done. 18:02.720 --> 18:06.720 They are full of spam, float, float, float. 18:06.720 --> 18:10.720 So, it's that. 18:10.720 --> 18:13.720 It's not bad. 18:13.720 --> 18:16.720 Yeah, the servers are full of spam, 18:16.720 --> 18:18.720 but trust is social. 18:18.720 --> 18:22.720 You trust to people basically. 18:22.720 --> 18:25.720 And trust is remarkable as now. 18:25.720 --> 18:28.720 If something is compromised, you can revoke it. 18:29.720 --> 18:35.720 We have a web of trust in Istanbul, which in our friends. 18:35.720 --> 18:39.720 And when we come to conferences like Phosem, CCC, 18:39.720 --> 18:43.720 or which media hackathon, we made signatures. 18:43.720 --> 18:48.720 And with all three signatures from Richard Stone, 18:48.720 --> 18:53.720 some debyan developers and some people from canonical, 18:53.720 --> 18:57.720 you will probably have a really good web of trust. 18:57.720 --> 18:59.720 It just works. 18:59.720 --> 19:02.720 Like when you trust someone at a high level, 19:02.720 --> 19:06.720 and if they trust someone at the same level, 19:06.720 --> 19:09.720 you automatically trust with them. 19:09.720 --> 19:10.720 People run it. 19:10.720 --> 19:11.720 Not companies. 19:11.720 --> 19:16.720 Not big corporations. 19:16.720 --> 19:19.720 Yeah, this is the thing. 19:19.720 --> 19:21.720 Forward secrecy is missing. 19:21.720 --> 19:24.720 It's the main feature of signal. 19:24.720 --> 19:31.720 It's true, but new PG protects identity. 19:31.720 --> 19:35.720 So it has a feature coming from this. 19:35.720 --> 19:40.720 It has long term variability. 19:40.720 --> 19:42.720 If you can verify something today, 19:42.720 --> 19:47.720 you will probably verify it in the next. 19:47.720 --> 19:52.720 I mentioned about this, but web models matter. 19:52.720 --> 19:57.720 When we wrote the article I mentioned before, 19:57.720 --> 20:01.720 Open PGP has no post quantum cryptography stuff. 20:01.720 --> 20:03.720 And this was the whole topic. 20:03.720 --> 20:06.720 Like, Google PG has no post quantum support, 20:06.720 --> 20:08.720 so it's useless right now. 20:08.720 --> 20:14.720 Is there anyone see a quantum computer in their life? 20:14.720 --> 20:19.720 It will probably be a problem from 50 years from now. 20:19.720 --> 20:22.720 But you know what? 20:22.720 --> 20:25.720 We will probably, like, half of us, let's say. 20:25.720 --> 20:28.720 We'll probably dead within, like, 60 years. 20:33.720 --> 20:40.720 So the thing is, actually, nothing is perfect. 20:40.720 --> 20:46.720 So trying to make it perfect is a good effort. 20:46.720 --> 20:51.720 But, like, discarding it because of not being perfect 20:51.720 --> 20:54.720 is not sustainable. 20:54.720 --> 20:57.720 The new PG is well implemented, 20:57.720 --> 21:00.720 and it has durable access. 21:00.720 --> 21:06.720 So you have one key, and it has many uses, including 21:06.720 --> 21:08.720 but not limited to. 21:08.720 --> 21:11.720 You can encrypt your email. 21:11.720 --> 21:15.720 If you install the email, you can encrypt your instant messages. 21:16.720 --> 21:18.720 Files, backups. 21:18.720 --> 21:21.720 It can be used as this digital signature. 21:21.720 --> 21:24.720 Like, if you want to contribute to Ubuntu, for example, 21:24.720 --> 21:28.720 they want you to sign code of conduct with your little PGT. 21:28.720 --> 21:32.720 Because it's fine with your identity. 21:32.720 --> 21:35.720 Packages. 21:35.720 --> 21:39.720 If you install something like pseudo-opt, 21:39.720 --> 21:43.720 install some package Firefox, 21:43.720 --> 21:47.720 it's used GNU PG to verify. 21:47.720 --> 21:53.720 Mostly, the transmission is not over HTTPS, 21:53.720 --> 21:55.720 because of the same reason. 21:55.720 --> 21:59.720 Why do we need to trust some central authority 21:59.720 --> 22:05.720 when we have an opportunity to trust ourselves? 22:05.720 --> 22:08.720 We can, woman, okay. 22:08.720 --> 22:09.720 Code signing. 22:09.720 --> 22:12.720 Just words. 22:12.720 --> 22:14.720 If you use GitHub, GitLab, Codeberg, 22:14.720 --> 22:17.720 you can sign your comments with GNU PG. 22:17.720 --> 22:18.720 Passwords. 22:18.720 --> 22:20.720 Everything. 22:20.720 --> 22:24.720 So you have one backup strategy, one identity, 22:24.720 --> 22:28.720 and you have hardware tokens, as I mentioned. 22:28.720 --> 22:31.720 So GNU PG is not an app. 22:31.720 --> 22:34.720 It's never meant to. 22:34.720 --> 22:37.720 It's not server bound. 22:37.720 --> 22:43.720 It is not that we have a bedroom about this. 22:43.720 --> 22:48.720 So if you want just need to install an app, 22:48.720 --> 22:51.720 installing an app will not give you privacy. 22:51.720 --> 22:54.720 Because privacy is a human matter, not a software matter. 22:54.720 --> 22:57.720 But you can still try open keychain. 22:57.720 --> 23:01.720 And using GNU PG with open keychain is way more easier 23:01.720 --> 23:04.720 than opening an account in X, 23:04.720 --> 23:05.720 I meant anywhere. 23:05.720 --> 23:12.720 But X, the Twitter is still applies. 23:12.720 --> 23:18.720 And yeah, security requires an ordinary doubt. 23:18.720 --> 23:22.720 So being alerted on privacy is better than one 23:22.720 --> 23:26.720 ability caused by this lag stick. 23:26.720 --> 23:31.720 And real risk is calling on a PG too hard is usually 23:31.720 --> 23:37.720 accepting users should not control your own identity. 23:37.720 --> 23:41.720 And that's why GNU PG is not obsolete right now. 23:41.720 --> 23:48.720 GNU PG is an idea, basically, with no authority. 23:48.720 --> 23:51.720 And the ideas are valid proof. 23:51.720 --> 23:55.720 It's survived cryptolors, political pressure, black propaganda, 23:55.720 --> 23:59.720 and it will survive after that. 24:00.720 --> 24:09.720 Thank you. 24:09.720 --> 24:11.720 If you have questions, I will be around. 24:11.720 --> 24:14.720 And you can use my stuff as well. 24:14.720 --> 24:15.720 Exactly. 24:15.720 --> 24:17.720 I was going to say if you have any questions for Liz gun, 24:17.720 --> 24:19.720 please go ahead and find him after this. 24:19.720 --> 24:22.720 We're going to go ahead and get changed over now.